S1E1 | Conversation on Leadership and Reform

Note: Joshua J. Smith served as Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the time this interview was recorded.

Episode one brings Director Marshall and former Deputy Director Smith together to discuss the brotherhood, real leadership, and the challenges they inherited within the Bureau. They reflect on the weight, the wins, and the pressure of driving change.

Episode one outlines the new standard of leadership: doing the right thing, setting the tone, and defining what will be valued, tolerated, and expected moving forward.

Transcript

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DepDir Smith 0:08

So here we are. A new day at BOP. A unique time. And doing another unique thing here, like they've not seen. It's been a lot of that over the last few months, hasn't it?

Director Marshall 0:20

It really has. And it's it's uh gone by pretty quickly, really. But you know, sometimes I feel like I've been here for five years, uh, but in reality I've only been here five months. Yeah. Uh but it's it's been uh there's been a lot happened. I'll just say that in the first first five months.

DepDir Smith 0:35

My 19-hour day yesterday felt like uh uh a month or two.

Speaker 1 0:39

Well you got you went home early. I mean, because you know, I I was here all night, you know what I'm saying? But but no, uh in all in all reality, I mean, you know, it took like eight weeks to get you here, you know. And uh once you got here, though, I felt like that we really was able to get our hands around stuff and uh start planning for for the future and got things rolling.

DepDir Smith 0:56

Yeah. You know, so I I think that this is gonna be unique doing these podcasts. And and I think especially this is the way to start it. I I don't think that people understand what type of relationship you and I have. Yeah. I I I I think that, you know, especially our people and folks out in the field, you know, that they there's so much concern as I've talked to my friends that have worked in this agency a long time, or especially the friends that have been retired, you know, there there's so much disconnect from central office down to the field. And they they don't feel heard, they don't feel like like anybody cares, and they get to see these decisions made from up here in the past where they don't feel like they consider them. And and I think one of the things that's I think there's gonna be many surprising things over the coming months about you and I's leadership and and how we work together. But I think some of that is gonna be how much uh that we care about this agency. And how many, I mean, you and I have talked hours and hours and hours and hours about this. This we don't you and I don't meet for 20 minutes and then we're done. I mean, we met way before this job and we began talking about those things. Uh, I think there'll be an appreciation, and maybe some will never even understand or even appreciate how much care we have for that front line. And and I think uh, you know, we can start off talking about a lot of stuff about us, but I think really they care about them. Well, what is our leadership? What is your leadership? What what do we mean to them? And so I think my first question, you know, I get to ask these questions because I I already know you. Sure. But I think I really want to see other people get to know you. Why do you care so much about corrections and and those frontline people? What why why is that?

Speaker 1 2:48

Well, you know, first of all, you know, I think that um when you talk about the disconnect from central office to the field, that's been the the importance behind our visits that we've already done, right? In just a short amount of time, we've been to several facilities, um, obviously not as many as we would like to, of course, with with our obligations here in DC. Um, but we've been to several facilities where we're able to uh show them what our true passion is and and how genuine we are in making things better for them. Um it's it's funny because you and I have talked about how some of these people treat us like we're divorced parents. Like, like, you know, they don't get that, like they don't know how much we talk, you know what I'm saying? But they don't know how much we communicate. And not only do we do we talk, but we spend time with each other. Like we're face to face with each other. And I think that's kind of been unprecedented maybe over the last several uh leadership uh groups, but uh that's what's been important to me. And and we spent time together, like you said, I mean, hours upon hours and and you know, making plans, and some were some you know just never came to fruition because they weren't really necessarily accurate from what we were told coming in. Um but uh you know to me, it's about people. I I say, you know, we're not in the corrections business. Um, you know, we're not in the government business, we're in the people business, and and life's all about helping people. If I if I didn't have the opportunity to help people and have that anticipation of being able to go out and do good for the world, man, I don't I don't know where I'd be, I'll be honest with you. It's been my whole life. You know, I started 21 years old uh going to the State Police Academy. And it was truly about helping people, like get having the opportunity to rid the world of evil and help people. And now that I'm on the other side of that, I'm looking at some of these individuals like, you know, they made mistakes, but not everybody's evil that's been incarcerated. And so I have the opportunity to help them now as well on the other side. And that's been so intriguing to me to be able to do that. I've I've often said for 25 years, I was a state police robot. You know, I would get this, I'd get the call, I'd get the investigation, I would clear it, I'd get the uh person that was responsible, put him in jail or prison, and move on to the next one. Not thinking anything beyond that about that individual unless we went to court later. Um the ability that I've uh that I've been given to transform my mindset, and that's what I told you yesterday, you know, you make me think in different ways. You make me better. When you're in the room with me, you make me better. We have those kinds of people in the world for us. Um, and I'm just fortunate that I'm able to call you deputy, friend, brother. Um, we're in this together for the next at least three and a half years, I I would assume. And so um that's a that that's so uh it just warms my heart so much. I can't tell you how much it just it how good that makes me feel that we're in this together going forward.

DepDir Smith 5:28

You know, it's a lot of work, but I you know, e even in some of the stressful days, you and I are having fun and and and and being able to change things the way that we are, and to be able to bring to to have a president like President Trump. Amazing. To have an attorney general like Pam Bondi who are saying, make it happen. Yeah, make it better, support our people, make it into a system uh that that that takes and takes care of its staff and that turns out a better product than what we receive.

Speaker 1 6:00

When I'm told to make the decisions that you've been making in your previous roles, continue to make the decisions that you want to make or need to make to make this bureau better, and we'll have your back. Don't be concerned about job security. We will have your back. When you hear those types of words, I mean that is so empowering. I mean, that that's so exciting for us to know that we had the ability to make a real change in this bureau. Um, and there's a lot of things that the Bureau was doing well, but there's a lot of areas also where they weren't doing so well and where they were kind of stubbing their toe, I like to say. And that gives us the opportunity, and we have free reign to make differences in these individuals' lives, to make the staff's lives better, to make the inmates' lives better, to give the inmates an opportunity to get their lives back, you know, to prepare them to get back into society, to make a real difference in their communities. But also when the staff leave every day, they feel good about what they've done. They feel good about being that that you know, that us that assistant that put helped put an individual back on track. Um, I I tell when I ran juvenile services in West Virginia, I told the officers, don't look at yourself as corrections officers. Look at yourselves as as teachers and coaches. Because you're, you're, you have the ability to make a difference in these juvenile world. You can give them the best four, five, or six hours of their day if you really want to. And those are the kinds of impacts that you can make. And when they come up to you, and I've coached in the past, as you know, and I've got you know several kids, when they come up to you years later, after they left school for no reason whatsoever and said, Coach, you made a difference in my life. You you impacted my life for the better, and I'm better because of it. Man, what a feeling. My gosh. I mean, I get chills just thinking about it right now. Amazing feel.

DepDir Smith 7:41

You know, one of the things that we've heard about, yeah, you know, we get to see the the the crazy comments on Facebook, right? The the the the that I make it very clear, I genuinely don't get it. Yeah, I mean, I I think some of I wish I had more time to watch it. I think some of them are funny. You got some of the that are so angry or upset, uh, used to work at whatever. There's you're gonna you're gonna have those there. What I wish people got to see is all the letters and emails we get from our staff, right? That that that are so excited right now that are talking about things. And and you and I, I love when we share them back and forth with each other, right? That's that's uh that those are some good nighttime reading. But one of the things that they talk to us about is really the issue and challenge we have with leadership. And you know, one of the things that I wish that that people knew also is, you know, I remember when we came in, uh, I was transitioned, you were there, and I remember them setting all of the warden selections, the the acting wardens in front of you, 30 something. Yeah. And and said, here you go, you know, sign off on them. And I watched, and and I'm sitting there in my mind going, wow, and and you you said, Well, how would I do this? I don't I don't know them. And and we're not putting leadership in until I know who they are. And uh and and and I'll tell you, that that was impressive for me to watch, to be able to see you take and say, uh-uh, that's that's not how we're starting here. Because leadership matters to you. And and and and you and I talk a lot about leadership. It's one of the things that when we have it right in the prison, in certain prisons, certain areas, certain departments, man, the people are happy, everything's better. Yeah, but when we have it wrong, it's bad. And and this agency has allowed that to be kind of that we get to hear it, let me use the staff's worst us, good old boy system. Yeah. Uh the, hey, we didn't know somebody, we didn't know somebody, and then hear the damages of that. And now we're already assessing those leaders, right? We have outside people, not not good old boy or good old good old girl network. It is outside people assessing that. Why has that been so important to you and what is your plan as as the director of how we turn this ship with so you're a basketball guy, right?

Speaker 1 9:56

So there's 30 NBA teams in the in the in the NBA, right? That would be like let's just pick 30 fans out of each arena and make them the head coach. You think that's gonna win any games? Now you might win some games on talent. You might win some games because you got an associate warden or you got a case manager or you got a stud captain. You think it's gonna sustain? That's a real absolutely not. Absolutely not. Now that's not to say that the 30 acting wardens that were in place weren't any good. That's not to say that at all. Sure. And the process that we've had along along the the year throughout the years doesn't mean we haven't landed on some good wardens because we have good wardens. However, if we want to make sure that one of the most important positions in the entire Bureau is locked down and they're an extension of us in our vision, an extension of President Trump and his vision, the extension of Attorney General Pam Bondi and her vision, we have to be involved in those decisions. We have to be involved in those selections. I think it's one of the most critical, if not the most critical, positions in the entire Bureau. I saw agencies, I saw facilities, I saw state police detachments flip for the good or bad overnight because of who's in charge. They're that important, and they're that important to me because they're going to be treating our people a certain amount of way, and I want to make sure our people are treated the right way and are given the right opportunities to succeed in their jobs.

DepDir Smith 11:28

You know, when this agency has continued to vote itself the worst place to work in all the federal government. It's because that it keeps perpetuating the same thing, right? I mean it's it's I I I was pointing out that the last two years it's been the worst, and then somebody told me, well, just so you know, in the last ten it's either been one or two. I just thought, wow, how you know it's a difficult job. A lot of people point to to the time I spent in prison 30 years ago, right? 30 to 25 years ago. And uh, you know, and most don't understand how much I've worked in corrections with correctional leadership and the state leaders and governors uh since. And that's fine. But even as somebody that was in prison, you can just see leadership matters. I mean, it's a big difference to the safety and security of the other staff, to the to the operation of these facilities and to the returning people back out in ways that they don't want to violate and cause other uh victims. It's it's a really big deal. And I just it just as a note, I really appreciate your focus on that. And I'm excited when we're working on, you know, they don't know that we're working on leadership development stuff. They don't know that we're working on some of these things to really invest in leaders up more. I think it's unfair how little the leaders in this agency have been invested in. Wouldn't you agree?

Speaker 1 12:43

Oh, absolutely. And and I mean, to me, I mean, leadership, uh, and a lot of people don't recognize what that is. A lot of people don't understand the definition of that. Um, it's like one of those things you know it when you see it type of thing. But leadership, if you look back throughout your entire life, you know, like my grandfather's World War II veterans, they're they were they had they were leaders for me. You know, my father, retired minister, was a leader for me. When I went entered the state police, I had captains and sergeants and whatnot to put their arm around me. They were leading me. They so much impact your life. They don't have to have a leadership position to be a leader. They just have to be somebody that cares about people on the left and right of them and has a singular mission on doing the right thing for people. And unfortunately, we found uh individuals in RBU that don't even know what doing the right thing means. They've been so locked into a rut or a system where they don't think anybody's watching, anybody cares, but they just continue doing the same thing over and over and over, just this brain-dead, you know, routine, you know, come in, clock in, clock out, go home. Um, they're not enjoying themselves. But leadership to me, I I mean, I can't even begin to measure how important it is going forward. Um, and it's just simply about caring about people and and you know, showing up. I mean, the fact that you and I are here every day, uh, if we're not, we're at a facility or we're traveling to a facility, I think that matters to our people in this building. I think that every time I see somebody and I met somebody new last night coming into the building, um Edward, he's a custodian here, and he was so happy to meet me. Uh, you know, and I've got a pair of gym shorts on the ball cap. I'm just, you know, hauling stuff back and forth. And um, but I mean it matters to these individuals, I think, that we're in this building. You know, I think it really does. And um, and I and if we can make a positive impact on everybody in this building or in whatever facility we visit, I mean, I think that's that's immense, and I think that'll spread eventually.

DepDir Smith 14:32

They've seen us out visiting the facilities and hitting it hard quick, right? I mean, I I don't even know how many facilities we we've been to now. Uh we've talked to countless staff members, we've talked to inmates, we've talked to different stakeholders. And uh, you know, one of the things that I appreciate about President Trump is the candidacy. He he wants transparent communication. Hate's layers. It allows, but it allows these conversations, right? Before nobody's able to listen all the way down uh through because you're not allowed to do this stuff, right? And he wants truthful and he wants straightforward communication. And so to that point, you know, one of the things, one of the comments that I hear, I think I just wrote down 13 weeks on my on my paper the other day. As we've been out to these institutions and we've been learning those things, uh what some of the people are saying is okay, great. They just think these are tours, you know, they think these are, you know, where you show up and grab a picture. And uh and and some of the staff, one of the staff members asked me not too long ago, uh, what is this gonna really mean to us? What are you guys doing? What are we working on? And and I told this this person, I said, I think that's a very fair question. Absolutely. Now keep in mind, we we've literally just been understanding this elephant that we've inherited. Sure. Uh people don't understand the deficit that we walked into day one, hundreds of millions of dollars of deficit. Uh what we were handed, you know, we had to get a hold of, and there's all kinds of other things that we don't talk about uh that we had to do. But uh are this some things that you want to share? I mean, I know some of them because we're working on them together, but of what you see of some of the things that are coming down the pike that that that we have been talking about uh that that that is going to directly affect our front lines because we've learned a lot being out there and and we're about to be able to execute on some of it.

Speaker 1 16:25

Well, keep in mind we're not following the Vince Lombardi and the 1960 Packers here, okay? I mean, we have we're not coming off the heels of championship after championship after championship here, okay? So we have to we have to we have to rebuild what this bureau was was supposed to look like, all right. So, and and like I said, there's there's been neglect with staffing and and funding for years and years and years to where they think that's what it's supposed to be, and that's not the case at all. I mean, Attorney General Pam Bondi, even in her uh, you know, even in her testimony on the Hill, I mean, she said, hey, the Bureau has been grossly underfunded and grossly understaffed for decades. She understands it, she gets it, she's in that corner with us, along with the president. And so, uh, you know, those are the types of things that when we go to these visits, and I don't avoid any question, and I know you don't either. And if I don't have the answer, I'll tell them, let me get that, let me get back to you on that. But but like you shared earlier, the dozens and dozens and dozens of emails that we receive for the positive of our visits. And like you said, listen, we're not there for a sound bite or for a headline or for a picture. I couldn't care less. Matter of fact, I had to be reminded when we were at Cumberland to talk to the reporter that was with us because I was focused on what we were doing. You know, I forgot that he was even there, to be quite honest with you. But that's okay because we are very genuine and transparent in what we're trying to do. I want to know by walking those hallways and looking those individuals in the eye, what matters to you? What can we do to help you? What do you need? Right? Because there's we we've got facilities that are falling down around these individuals. It's really hard to focus on safety and security when you've got buildings with with leaking roofs, you've got showers that won't work, you got toilets that are backing up, you've got cell doors that won't stay closed. Virtually impossible to do your job like that. I I equate that when I was in West Virginia, uh, you know, the legislatures didn't quite understand why it was important that the cell doors didn't work. I'm like, well, let me put it to you this way. If you're babysitting and you put a two-year-old in the playpen and you go to the next room and you come back, that two-year-old's gone, that's a problem. Big problem. Big problem. Now, now now make that person uh a convicted criminal. And they all kind of like, oh, the light bulb came on. You know, I mean, it, you know, and it's okay that they don't know those things. Um, but those are the types of things we have to communicate, but I don't know those things unless I get out into the field and actually walk the halls with them, uh, sit down with them and listen to them, be genuine about it. When I ask them how they're doing, I really want to know how you do it. It's not just say, hey, how you doing and walk on. I want to know how you're doing. It's okay to not be okay. I want to know if you've got problems. I need there's no way we can help you if we don't know those problems. And I know you're doing the same thing, and I know it matters to you as well. And so um, you know, those types of things, just simply caring about the individuals. You talked about the warden selections, you know, that are coming out, the the review of the wardens, uh, trying to make sure we got the right people in the right places. We've got, you know, President Trump gave us five billion dollars for the big beautiful bill. Five billion. That's on top of our regular budget. Three billion for staff, two billion for infrastructure. As, you know, we're drilling down on it. You're you know, you've really been into the weeds on it to make sure we spend that money the right way because it's one-time money. We can't waste a penny of that money. We can't put, you know, I don't want to put a million dollars into a facility. I know it's not gonna be here in a year. So we're really drilling down on that. Those are those are exciting things we got coming. We're expecting uh an increase in our overall budget, which uh is exciting because that'll help us move forward, move the needle forward as well. Uh but we have a lot of things that um, you know, we we've got uh the First Step Act, we're cleaning it up, we're making it be what the president, what President Trump's vision for it was to be. Um Been utilized properly. Um, we've got to make sure that the calculations are proper. Um, we had a meeting yesterday uh and and a great point by one of our outside stakeholders, the model has to be the right model, and you've said it best. When we stop getting questions from the field, from the inmates, case managers, et cetera, about the FSA, then we'll know it's working. And so those are a lot of things that we're jumping on board right away. Um, I love the fact that we're, you know, we're trying to utilize uh uh home confinement more. You know, we're trying to get these individuals that have met their criteria that are in halfway houses. We keep hearing, well, there's not enough halfway house beds. Well, no, we got too many people still in halfway house beds that needs to be on home confinement. That opens up those beds, and then we can start working towards the individuals that are incarcerated, uh, that are they're still in detention centers or, you know, or residential facilities, get them to halfway houses and the system will work. Uh, there's a lot of things that we've got going on. Josh, we haven't even scratched the surface yet. I mean, you know, we've looked at different ways to improve our investigations, improve our funding, improve our finances. Um, we we've looked at everything, as you know. Um you've come up with a great plan that you presented to me recently about, you know, you see that elephant, you know, you can you can just now see the elephant and and we're gonna start taking bites out of it. And so I think that's very, very important.

DepDir Smith 21:17

Yeah. You know, the what I love about our attorney general is I mean, she said from day one, hey, this has not been focused on. Euro prisons hasn't been focused on her. And that's one of the arguments I've made for a long time that that what I've learned in these other states and is that correctional agencies generally are not appreciated by administrations or uh the general public. Just just period. And you know, you and I have the pleasure that that if we're really honest, former directors haven't been able to have. Uh both you and I got the got the opportunity to sit in front of the president. That's that's never happened. Right. Um we've spent not just one minute with the attorney general, not just for us swearing in. You and I have hours with the attorney general. And she cares. I mean, this is something she's very intentional on. Uh in fact, already uh funding, working to get other positions back, already helping on the funding side, going to bat for us on those things. Again, this is the stuff that the field doesn't see, right? They they don't see you in there fighting for resources and money. They don't get to see the attorney general doing these things. They just they haven't been able to see that, right? Right. And it's something that's not normal to them before. And so you and I do have an unfair advantage over former directors. I think it's only fair to point that out uh with respect to them, that that we do have support that others haven't had. Already the Bureau of Prisons is sitting at tables that it has not been able uh to sit at. How do you feel like that helps us uh in our roles?

Speaker 1 22:58

I think it's critical, and I think that when we're looked at that we're just as important and value and as valuable as you know, Cash Patel's you know, FBI and Dan Bogito's FBI, you know, they're impactful as well. When we're just as important uh, when we feel just as important as they are, uh we're the largest agency in the Department of Justice. Um, you know, I think, like you said, for the first time, we have a seat at the table. And and A. G Bondi, she is so genuine, man. I mean, she is so easy to talk to. She is like, I mean, she she's she's been a blessing to us, I'm gonna tell you, because I can ask her anything. And yeah, I can be straight up and and honest with her. And that trick was down even to to the uh the DAG Todd Blanche and even down to Diego uh Pistana. I mean, you know, that they are just so genuine to be able to talk to and get things done. And I'm so blessed to have them for the Bureau. And it's it's only going to pay dividends because, like you said, and I don't understand the mindset because when I came from the state police, I heard that you know the corrections were this, they were second class, they would do they had work, they had bad people. So I challenged those troopers around the state right after I retired. I knew someone in every pocket of the state, and I was looking at being the commissioner. I said, next time you check somebody into one of our facilities, tell me what you see. Tell me, tell me what you would have expected and tell me how things went. Well, they started calling, you know, and then also a lot of retired troopers become sheriffs. I asked them to do the same thing. They started calling. And guess what happened? Well, they're not as bad as what they thought they were, right? Or there were areas where they did they didn't be cleaned up. You know, it took two hours to get a guy in and out of there. Um, and so those are the types of things we started working on. And then you start building those relationships, right? When we can share the good and the bad of corrections with the Bureau with the Attorney General and be upfront and honest, there's no way for them to fix things if they don't know exactly what we're doing or what, you know, uh and what we need. And I I tell everybody when I go to facility, nobody outside of us knows who we are. So it's our responsibility to let them know. It's my responsibility when I go to the hill. I don't expect them to know corrections. Yeah, I spent 25 years in the state police and thought I knew a little bit. I didn't know anything. All right. I had to come with my hat in my hand and learn uh from some correctional giants and along the way meeting people like you know, Ricky Dixon and Brian Collier and, you know, the giants of the corrections. And so um, I didn't know either. So when I go onto the hill and I talk to members of Congress or senators, listen, I tell them our story. I don't go in asking for money and I don't go in asking for staff. I go in and I tell them our story. And inevitably, by the time I leave, how can we help you? What can we do for you? You know, that's what we have to be doing. We have to sell what we do, not not fabricate it, not make it look like some movie, but tell them the truth and be genuine about what we do. And inevitably, they want to help. You invite them to facilities. I had members of Conversation, I've never been invited to a facility. That's it's crazy to me. Why would you not want that? Like, you know, when we when we get uh you know uh outside interest and they say, hey, this might be corrupt or this might be happening. And and I I listen, I welcome that. I I welcome the IG to come into our facilities. I welcome those things because we have to know what's going on if we're gonna fix it. We don't shy away from anybody, as you know. I mean, I don't shy away from anybody. Media, outside resources, stakeholders, you know, people within the Bureau, I don't shy away from anybody. There's got to be value at everything that they're trying to say to us. And we would be foolish not to listen, but we're also foolish if we don't represent the Bureau and tell them what we do so we can have the things we need.

DepDir Smith 26:24

So the you know, we we've learned a lot uh drinking out of a fire hose the last several months. We've we've made sure not to uh just stay here and listen to Central Office. Sure. Right? We we've gotten out into the field, we've spent hours upon hours upon hours. I think both of you and I are on two and three books each that we filled up with our uh Yeah, and I've got two journals going also um of my own experiences outside of what we're doing. Yeah, and and you and I, noble telling how many hours we've spent downloading from each of those visits, what we've learned, how we've heard, and and and and we've been able to see some of the best that this agency has, some of the best people, some of the some of the people that care, uh some of the some of the people that are in these departments that have been underfunded, underappreciated, they might be the only person still left there. And and and we've gotten all these different things. Now we've seen some bad, we know that, we know it exists, we we get the letters, we we see it, and we're working through that. I can assure you that's not gonna be that's not gonna be safe anymore. But what, you know, as you think about uh our time here and and your time here, what what are some of the things that you hope to accomplish that when you leave that you're able to say, Man, I've I I've done this, uh, or or I was able to do this with the Bureau of Prison?

Speaker 1 27:47

Well, first of all, it it would probably be a blessing for when my time comes, um for people to say um he cared about us. He cared about what we were doing, um, he made a positive impact in my life and the bureau's a better place than it was when he got here. Because you get those, you get those reality versus perception type things, right? And there's a lot of things that you and I were were told coming in that just simp simply weren't true. But there was a lot of things also that was true. And so if I can make a difference in someone's life and they say our facility is better because he was here, our bureau is better because he was here, my life with my family is better because he was here, I'm able to do the job I was hired to do and not augment it every day because he was here, um, you know, that would be outstanding. But I always make it very, very clear my legacy are my children. Okay. My wife and my children are my legacy. And what I leave behind with them, they'll carry on hopefully for years and years and years because I've done that with my grandfathers and my parents. So uh that's ultimately the the legacy that I want to leave. Um, but the Bureau means so much to me. Um don't get me wrong, I love the state police and I love the West Virginia Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. But this is my team now. These are my people. I love every one of them. I tell them that and they look at me like I'm crazy. I love every one of you before I've even met most of you because I'm gonna fight for you every single day. Now I don't want this to sound confrontational, but you get one chance with me. If you purposely lie to me, if you purposely try to hurt somebody, um, you purposely try to sabotage what we're doing, and I find out about it, you won't get a second chance. It's really that simple. Um, I'm loyal to a fault. I mean, for God's sakes, I'm still a Dallas Cowboys fan. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm long suffering, brother. I'm gonna tell you, it's rough. It's rough sometimes, but I am loyal to a fault. When I'm on your team, I'm gonna fight tooth and nail to the edges of the earth for you.

DepDir Smith 29:59

As we've done this, is there anything else that you feel like would be important uh for those in our agency uh to know and understand, being able to hear uh directly from you, the director?

Speaker 1 30:14

Yeah, that's probably a tough, tough one to answer right now, you know. So early on, I I say early on, we've been here, you know, I've been here about five months. Um, you know, I I think it goes back to just like I said, I mean, we're trying to fix things for you. Um, I mean, it's my goal to make your job and life better if I can, and I'm gonna try hard to do that. I don't know who would be on board, who wouldn't be on board with that, who wouldn't want that. Um, I know I would sure want it, you know, if somebody come from a leadership position to wherever I was a subordinate uh and and say, hey, we're here to set you up for success. We want to make sure you you're able to have the tools and the and the knowledge that you need. Um one thing that I really, really want to drill down on, and I think you've done a good job starting off with this, is our training isn't sufficient enough. And I come from a tremendous training background. Um, when you spend 36 weeks in the State Police Academy and you graduate and you still don't feel like you're ready until you hit the field, um, you know, I I don't think three weeks is nearly enough to to say give a 25-year-old or a 30-year-old and then, you know, throw them into the fire that we throw them into. Um, I've talked to a lot of them that they they just don't feel like they're prepared. And if you don't feel trained and prepared, you're gonna make bad decisions. And bad decisions result in bad situations in in facilities that can get people, you know, injured or worse. And so um we got to make sure that our training is where it needs to be. The funny thing about training is people, you know, we had a lot of lot of, I've got a lot of emails saying we've cut training, we've cut training. People people look at training like the outside people look at training like it's work. Corrections loves training. Law enforcement, they love training because that makes them better at their job. They feel more confident. They feel like if they know what they're doing, they're more confident. They're able to help the coworkers around them. And so I think that the training model that we have really has to ramp up. You touched on it with our supervisors. You make somebody a warden in the past, you just put them in there. You haven't told them how to treat people, you haven't told them how to lead people, you haven't even told them how to even run your budget that that belongs to your to your facility. And then we wonder why some of these facilities aren't ran the right way when it comes to finances and stuff. You can't depend on your regional director to do everything. I mean, you you know, you don't want your regional director to run your facility. You want to be able to do that. So I think that uh, you know, once we get our arms around training, you've got a great start to it by visiting Glencoe and visiting the training facility out in Denver. Um, you know, I think that's gonna be an uh an important part of what we do going forward. I think that's really gonna help the Bureau grow and be stronger.

DepDir Smith 32:44

You know, I sit there and I think about how, you know, you're already retired from a career and uh and then took another job to help in your state, and now you're here. I was retired. I definitely uh wasn't looking for a job. Definitely didn't think I'd get this job. Uh didn't think I would be working in corrections. And I think that some, you know, are used to people maybe that have this as a job. They've come up through the system. It's just it's kind of their, you know, they're they're their end and and and they've done the hard work now. They're they're in the easy. They're looking for a stool to sit on. Yeah. Yeah. And which I think it's if anybody's around, does any of our staff know it's not easy working in central office right now? Uh we're we're moving a lot of stuff and we're doing a lot of stuff. Some people really like it, and some people aren't used to having to work this hard, uh, especially in government. And but it's it's it's becoming, you know, i I think what I like what you said is is you want to make a difference. I think that's the key of that's what really both of our goals are. And if we're able to make a difference and make it a better place for our staff to work, where they're not voting it the worst place to work, if they're enjoying what they do, if they understand the mission, if they have leadership they can trust and and enjoy working with. And and and us then being able to put out that better product of somebody coming into our system, not a good person, right? That's done something really bad that's violated society, but yet we're able to expose them to something or teach them something that allows them to return back to society better and receive them. Yeah. That that's our mission, that's our goal. It is and and I think what you know, just personally, I'm having a great time doing it with you. Uh, I think that we've had, you know, we we we work hard in doing it. I I've been really appreciative of some of the team members that we've already been able to find that are joining us in this work, that that are great, and uh, and and others. And so uh it it's it's a pleasure to me.

Speaker 1 34:43

Well, and it's it's funny you say that because people might not know um like our relationship and where it started, and we haven't even known each other for a year, to be quite honest. Well, about a year now, I guess, uh in August. And so, but we really didn't truly know each other until we started through this process. But look, just like out at the CLA conference in Denver, people come up to you and me said, Man, you guys act like you really enjoy each other. I said, I love the guy, man. I mean, I am having so much fun. I said, I feel like I've known this guy my whole life. Uh you know, he's a brother, you know, he's in this with me. And we wouldn't want to do this if it wasn't enjoyable. I know, don't get me wrong, man. We're grinding. I mean, and you we're both grinders and we put in a lot of time, but I don't see it as working when you love it so much. And so um, I still had uh a lot of juice in the tank, I felt like when I retired. When I retired state police, I was 47 years old. So it wasn't even a question of whether or not I was going to continue to work. Um, Governor Justice, now Senator Justice, gave me a tremendous opportunity to be part of a criminal investigations director for military affairs and work my way up through corrections to eventually being the commissioner. Um, and so that's that's what keeps me going. My wife will tell you, I mean, I was retired for 10 days and she looked at me and said, honey, I love you, but you gotta find something to do. And of course I had a I had something coming, but you know, it was like I I I gotta keep that challenge, you know, uh that carrot out in front of me, I guess. But when this when this opportunity came up, um I was kind of blown away that they'd be interested in what uh what what my leadership could bring to this bureau. And and I was excited to see uh sitting across from President Donald J. Trump, which was so surreal, that here's a little old boy from West Virginia, you know, uh single A high school, small high school, and uh, you know, grew up in small towns and all that kind of stuff. And like I'm sitting here across from the president of the United States, and he's talking to me about an opportunity to work for him. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, wow. And I was excited to see if that pragmatic approach that I took in West Virginia, just just the just the you know, sit down, look somebody in the eye, give them the the the straight story would work. And I was I was so happy to see it does work. Because it's like I said earlier, it's about it's about people. And and at the end of the day, corrections 101 is corrections 101, man. I think we get all caught up in the bureaucracy and we get, like I said, caught in a rut and we forget about what our actual mission was. Um, but to have that opportunity, um, I mean, my gosh, I just was, I mean, I can't tell you how excited was almost to tears, man, to be given this opportunity to work for President Donald J. Trump, Attorney General Pam Bondi, uh, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, to work with you, to work with these outstanding people that I've met in the bureau because we've got thousands of people that are outstanding, okay? We got a few here that they've stubbed their toe and they need some help, all right? They need patted on the on the tail in and let's go type thing. Um and then some of them just need to go. But I mean, I can't even tell you how proud I was to call my parents. I'm getting emotional right now, to call my parents that I didn't even tell I was going through the process because I didn't want to let anybody down, right? My wife and my kids knew that's about it. And you, I mean, that's about it, Rick, Rick Gates, you know, just a few people. And my mom's like, what? For like West Virginia? I said, Yeah, mom, and the other 49 states in Puerto Rico. I said, you know, so she's like, holy cow, what what what an opportunity. I'm like, tell me, I mean, tell me. I mean, I it I'm I'm amazed, and I'm not going to waste this opportunity coming here and and not do the job and not give everything I've got to make the president proud and everybody proud and make this bureau the very best that I can be. I mean, I'm I'm getting cold chills right now. Let's go, man. I mean, let's go. I mean, let's let's get this done. I mean, I'm I'm not gonna leave anything behind. Whatever my last day is here, buddy, it's gonna be a cloud of smoke behind me because I'm gonna be burning through it all, man. I'm gonna tell you, you're gonna get my very best for however long I'm here, and I know I'm gonna get the same from you.

DepDir Smith 38:37

Leave it all on the field.

Speaker 1 38:38

Buddy, let's go, man. Dad gone, let's go.

DepDir Smith 38:41

So we've been here these, you know, 13 weeks for me, a little longer for you. We've been out in the field, we've spent hours and hours inside a central office with every one of the different department heads and leaders. We've we've seen every form and level of the prison. And we have uncovered a lot of very frustrating, difficult things. Some we knew, some others had told us about, some expected it all have to be stay the same. But we know President Trump and Attorney General Bondi don't stand for that. No, not at all. But they didn't send us here to keep it the same. Uh let's talk about some of the things that we have found. Um I'll let you go first. What what are some of the same things that that have really stood out that that's that's that's really bad inside of the agency that can be fixed?

Speaker 1 39:39

Well one thing that that really aggravated me, and and you know, and I'm not a smoke and mirrors guy. I can't stand it, um, was when you look at the staffing levels at these facilities and they're up in the 90s and you know percentile and things like that, and then you start really looking, and and all they did was change the staffing numbers at the facilities to increase the percent. Of the staff that are there. And that is not genuine. That's just a flat out lot.

DepDir Smith 40:05

Funny math.

Speaker 1 40:06

Yeah, it's it's that it's that funny math. It's that smoke and mirrors type of stuff. And so what you've done is you've told your staff we really don't care about you. We only care about what the Hill thinks or what some the outside people think. We don't really care about you. Let's just change the math and make it look like we've got 95% vacancy, which in reality we've probably got about 70%. And so those types of things, like I don't like that. Like to me, that is that is just wrong. I mean, that is that's and anybody that could sit at a table and testify to that, yeah, they shouldn't be here. I mean, I'm just gonna be quite honest with you. Um, first, you know, we need to go back to about 10 years ago to see what the facilities were actually staffed at. You do these these facility character profiles and all this kind of stuff. I mean, they're gonna be upset about that. You know, I mean, we need more staff in these facilities, and we know that. Now, with that said, we need more of the right staff. Okay, we don't need, as I say, we don't need people that can just fog up a mirror. That's not a qualification to be a creations officer or a creation employee in the bureau. We have to have the right people because the more right people we have, the better this bureau is gonna be long term. We've got to start looking towards the future. Um, we can do we can do more with less people if they're the right people, and then start and then those people can start recruiting people going forward, and we can really staff these uh facilities like they should be and deserve to be staffed. Uh that was one thing.

DepDir Smith 41:22

Um and I remember, I think it was my sixth day in, got sworn in on a Monday. I I I was at a USP on a Saturday. That's why a journal.

Speaker 1 41:33

I couldn't remember my sixth day.

DepDir Smith 41:34

Yeah, no, no detail, nobody actually just got dropped off the front door. And I wanted to go early enough to catch third shift. I remember there was uh at this USP, a third shift person walked out and I surprised everybody. Boom, here I am, you know. And and I just asked him to talk about his job, and and one of the things that he pointed out, he said, Hey, help me understand how we're 98% staffed, yet we're still augmenting in overtime. He knew the answer to that. And and and and I and I pulled out my book and I wrote that down, and and that was kind of my first you know, foray into this funky math that they do on staffing. And and and and what I appreciate about us is we're we're about to tell that story. We're gonna use real numbers, yeah not not not just look good in front of Congress, but be able to do that. Uh, but man, that's gotta be so frustrating and tough on the staff on our front lines that are just looking at this, thinking, who in the world is doing this?

Speaker 1 42:29

Well, I witnessed that, you know, back in my home state of West Virginia. I I witnessed the same thing. You know, they they were concerned about these outside entities, uh, the the justice commissions or the censing commission or the the legislatures or whoever's looking at it from the outside end. Uh they were worried about, you know, the low staffing numbers and what it looked like. They tried to do the same thing before I became commissioner. And I'm like, that's a that's a bad idea, guys. I mean, they did it, they kind of did it anyway. But when I showed up, I'm like, this is what this is what is really needed to run these facilities because anytime you do like a staffing analysis, most of the time these these companies that do these analyses, they don't know corrections. They're just simply looking at a blueprint and a cookie cutter type of project. And and they they will inevitably come back needing less staff. Okay. They're hired by you know state government to do these types of things when in reality they have no idea what they're looking at. They don't really talk to the staff that are there. They don't really listen to what they need and what they go through every day. They don't understand that you might have 10 hospital runs a day. You know, they don't understand that you might have 15 court runs a day. They don't understand those types of things. So why would we allow them to be the you know judge and your jury in regards to how many staff we need? All right. So, you know, that individual that that talked to you about that, first of all, he probably thought you were there to get him, quote unquote. Uh they once they realized you were there to help them, then they were fine with it. But they know the answers to those things. And so how genuine are we if we continue that narrative? You know, I I'm I'm I'm destroying that narrative. We have to have the right amount of staff in the right in the in these facilities in order to do the job that we need to do. Are we ever going to be able to eliminate augmentation? I don't think so. I mean, it's going to come. I mean, there's going to be times where you know you're going to have a holiday or you're going to have people, you know, call off for whatever reason. But we need to be doing more for these individuals so they can do the job like I mentioned earlier. So they can do the job we hired them to do. Psychology, education, uh, officer, captain, lieutenant, whatever. They need to be doing admin, you know, whatever. They need to be doing the job we hired them to do more, much, much more than than being augmented to stay in the post because it's not fair to them, it's not fair to the facility. It doesn't strengthen the facility, it weakens them.

DepDir Smith 44:36

So when we talk about funny math, we have to talk about the the the mess that we've inherited with money. Yeah. Uh we came in to I think somewhere around a five to six hundred million dollar deficit. Frankly, you know, I've heard it from the field, and as you and I have investigated, we see sometimes it just hasn't made sense. We've cut money from the things that we don't need to cut money from and put money towards stuff that that it's not where it should be directed. Now, it's hard because everybody, there's always a winner and loser when you're short on money, right? Somebody's gonna be upset, you know, this this here and that. Um what have your been your thoughts just if we've learned about the budgeting and and how that is? You talked about training, how money's been taken away from training, it's been taken away from travel, it's been taken away from a a lot of things. Uh what are your plans just as we move into this next season, what that looks like?

Speaker 1 45:31

So, you know, I I if and I'll just start off like the FSA problem we inherited, right? The First Stepped Act. President Trump, you know, Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, Ivanka Trump, his daughter, so on and so forth, they crafted along with a lot of a lot of help, they crafted this bill to do great things for the incarcerated community. Great things. It was funded. It was funded well. It should have been working perfectly. But let's just face it, President Biden, his administration, they used that money to supplement shortfalls in budgets. That's what it amounted to. And that's completely wrong. Shouldn't be able to do that, shouldn't have done that. And then when we come in, we're like, where'd all this money go? You know, it wasn't focused on first step act, it wasn't focused on fixing the calculator, it wasn't focused on getting people back into the to to society with their families. And that was a problem. And you know, when I when I first was was learning about first step act, I'm thinking, well, maybe it's just a data collection problem. No, it was it was a corrupt problem, is what it was. You know, there was a situation where the money wasn't spent where it needed to be spent, it wasn't, it wasn't sent to the areas it needed to be sent to. Um, we they they did a terrible job at building the bench, had one guy that ran the whole calculations for the entire bureau. Keep in mind, 156,000 inmates, 36 or 37,000 employees, and one guy. One guy ran the calculations on these individuals for FSA. And I and I used that example. What if a meteor come out of the air tonight and struck that guy dead? Everybody stuck, nobody going anywhere. Well, guess what? That individual did a horrible job of building his bitch. And I think the Bureau as a whole has done a bad job of building their bitch. Who's the next, who's the next up? Who's the next in line? Who's the next talented individual that can come up and take your take your position? But we found other areas where, you know, for lack of a better term, they've had to use money from other areas to supplement the shortfalls in the budget because the Bureau has never been funded the way it needs to be funded. And those are the things that President Donald J. Trump and Ten Attorney General Pam Bondi, they are going to rectify. They're going that they recognize it, they've heard from us, uh, they understand that the things that we need. Um, and to have that kind of support and and and that kind of backing um truly makes my job that much more enjoyable knowing that we have that that type of uh that type of backing uh to get these things done. Because if if we were here and we were you know beating our head against the wall and knowing that we couldn't get the things that we needed, we were just continuing to put band-aid on things, man, I don't know how much fun that would be. You know, we would we would do the best we could because as corrections know we can't put no vacancy signs at our doors. All right. We we we can't shut down. Yeah, we can't shut down. And they know that. They know that. So we have to use the money that we're given. But to have that kind of support from this administration is a blessing and we're gonna take advantage of it.

DepDir Smith 48:10

Anything else stand out that's been frustrating to you that you've learned?

Speaker 1 48:14

Uh just simply trying to get people on boarded. You know, I mean, we're sitting here today. Um I started on April 21st until you know today's what's September 9th. Um, I've had I've had uh I've had the success of onboarding one person and I'm talking to them right now, and so that's been frustrating as well. Um we need to figure out a way to streamline that process. Uh there's there's so many layers, and I know the president has mentioned several times he hates layers. You know, he likes going straight to the source. We need to find a way to get straight to the source through these HR problems and get people onboarded. We have tremendously talented people uh on the outside that we want to bring in that would really take this bureau to the next level that we can't get in because of bureaucracy right now. Now we're trying to wait through, we're having support to do that, but we just got to simply get that done. Um I've been able to move people internally. We've been able to lift some of the internal hiring freezes, uh, thanks to you know the attorney general and so forth to get some people moved around, promoted. Um, but we've got a lot of talented people on the outside that that that just are begging to help us, uh, and they're not even doing it for the money. I mean, they're just coming in, you know, wanting to help us, wanting a position to help us, and uh we're having a hard time getting those individuals in. That's really, really frustrating me right now.

DepDir Smith 49:22

You know, I I sit there and I think now we're a few months in together, and uh I think about doing another one of these in a few months. Sure. Right? Mm-hmm where we're able to sit there and and and and and talk about what did we do from the first three months. We've done a lot of learning right now. We've not been able to do a whole lot. We're we're still sitting in a budget cycle that was determined for us. In fact, next year is was determined a year ago, two years ago uh that we're already working on changing. But uh I'm already excited about having another one of these in a few more months to be able to talk about the things that we've been able to to to figure out, the staff that we've been able to get uh with us to be able to help bring about the change. You know, one of the things that I've said in a couple of our videos, things and and that I appreciate that you understand as well, is that you and I can only do so much from here.

Speaker 2 50:13

Right.

DepDir Smith 50:14

The biggest thing that we can do is to support those that that have the right understanding of the mission of this agency, empower them, and then bring more that understand that that that mentality to them. We can get to yes quicker than what most people in most bureaucracies can, thanks to President Trump and Pam Bondi. Uh and and and be able to support them in a way. But at the end of the day, you and I can't do anything. It's gonna take our frontline people, it's gonna take them raising up and and doing things uh in a better way, uh in a more empowered way from the top and uh and in a way that supports this agency. And you know, I I'm already looking forward to the next few months when we can be able to talk about it.

Speaker 1 51:00

And it's funny you say that because we, you know, we each have amazing wives because they tolerated us through this process of of of going through the you know interview process and the process of getting here. We spent hours and hours with each other on Zoom calls and and and exchanging notes and plans and so forth. And it's been fun to look back at those things that we started preparing in February, March, and so forth before we even got here to see like what we had thought we were going to be able to do compared to what we're able to do. So it's fun to look back on that stuff that I still keep. I keep it all. Uh the you know, the conversations we had, the notes that we took, the you know, the strategic plans, the the thoughts we had on FSA to look back on that stuff and to see how much we've already learned and how much we've already changed in just a short amount of time. Like I said earlier, we've just scratched the surface. But for our wives to put up with us, and of course, you know, they they peek in and say, hey to each other, you know, they you know, they just recently met each other for the first time in person just a few weeks back. And so uh but we our already felt like they knew each other, of course. But uh, you know, to be able to spend that time coming in, and you know, and and and I was so thankful that the president, President Trump didn't force somebody on me. You know, the president and Pam Bondi said, that's up to you. Like we're talking about a deputy. Well, that's up to you. Well, I was so glad to hear that because I knew who that was going to be, and I knew the groundwork we'd already laid, and I knew the successes we were going to have. Uh, and so I was so excited and so thankful. And like I said to you, you know, every day you make my life better every day that you're in it, and uh you're gonna make this bureau the same. And I'm just happy to be in it with you.

DepDir Smith 52:37

I feel the same way. I look forward to our time here in just a few more months when we give an update and see where we're at.

Speaker 1 52:43

I think I think that uh hopefully people will be interested in listening to it uh because I know we're we're both very passionate about it, and uh there's gonna be a lot of changes going forward.