S1E3 | Building Better Leaders in Federal Corrections

Note: Joshua J. Smith served as Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the time this interview was recorded.

Wellness is not an add-on; it’s embedded in supervision quality, workload fairness, and the feeling that one’s job matters. Misty Starr, Regional Director for the Mid-Atlantic Region argues for cultivating captains, associate wardens, and leaders who are right for the position and ready to lead.

Transcript

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Opening And Guest Introduction

Smith 0:09

All right, Misty Star.

Starr 0:12

Good morning.

Smith 0:12

How are you doing this morning? I'm good.

Starr 0:14

How are you?

Smith 0:15

Very good. I'll tell you, I have been excited to be able to talk with you, and I'm going to tell you why. Not just on this podcast, but, you know, I've I've covered the the the system a little bit over the last few months. Gotten out to I don't even know how many now, maybe 20 facilities. I think just last week I was in Dallas and and spoke to between three and five hundred staff members between three different recalls.

Career Path Across Multiple Facilities

Smith 0:45

And as I've been out, I hear your name a lot. A whole lot. I I I look and I talk about the importance of leadership. I talk about the importance of us identifying the right leaders. And I ask a lot of times, who does who do you think is a good leader? And and and I ask that question because it tells me a lot about the person that I ask it of, right? And uh and I've been able to hear your name a lot. You are now the first selection uh that that has been made into a regional director position. Now, we we've made two others, but they were acting. You're the first one that we've pulled from the field into that role. And uh and so and you start in that role very soon. You're probably already already working on some things. Um but I so so everybody knows about you. Tell me a little bit about uh what's your history in this agency? How did you come up through this agency and what's been your experience so far?

Starr 1:49

Sure, and thank you for sharing that. I started, I was a public school teacher in special education before I started with the Bureau. So I was lucky enough to start at USP Hazleton 21 years ago as an HR. And then uh went up the ranks of education, went on to at the time it was FCI Morgantown, now FPC, as supervisor of education, went on to be executive assistant at FCI Manchester, Kentucky, and then two associate warden tours, one at FCI Cumberland, one at FPC Alderson, and then on to warden at FCI Waseka, Minnesota, USP Florence, full circle back to FCC Hazelton.

Smith 2:33

Wow. And so you you've you've covered a lot of places. Covered a lot of ground. BLP likes to move people around a lot. I have I have uh learned that. I I think there's some good with that, but golly, that's that can be so difficult uh on other

Defining Poor And Strong Leadership

Smith 2:47

things. So what tell me some examples that you've seen in this agency of both poor leadership and of of good leadership, and maybe how that how that has maybe shaped who you are.

Starr 3:02

Okay. Um I'll start with poor leadership. I've witnessed those leaders over the years that I'm sure we all have that are just not engaged. They're in the seat, they have the title, um, but they're very hands-off with the staff that they lead as well as the inmates that are in their facility. You don't see them often, you don't hear from them often. Um, and it just creates a divide uh between the the line staff and management. So that would be an example of poor leadership. An example of good would be the opposite, those leaders that are out there side by side with their staff, that are out there in the housing units, that are in the programming areas, observing what's going on, getting to know the individuals. That's what makes a better environment and culture within the prisons.

Smith 3:59

You know, we've got some great people inside this agency. I mean, you obviously know you've been to a lot of different places. And but we

Setting Goals As Regional Director

Smith 4:09

also have some very poor ones. And and they've been allowed to stay in those roles, in those areas. And uh and that's something Director Marshall Marshall and I have identified, and looking at saying, all right, how do we how do we change that? Um when you walk into your role, what is your hope? I mean, now you're you're at one of the top positions in this agency. You have one of the one of the most impactful jobs that that helps identify these next leaders, it helps manage them, it helps uh train them, it helps all those things. What what's what's some of the things that you've thought about as you've reflected, going, wow, I just got tapped for this job. What is it that you would like to do?

Starr 4:57

Well, building the new leadership, getting us a a bench, so to say, so that we have uh people ready and willing to be taking these captain spots, associate warden spots, warden spots, because we need quality and we even need competition. We don't want to just be filling these positions with bodies because we need someone. We need people that are trained, that are passionate, and that are waiting in the wings hoping they get in the seat one day so that they can make a difference.

Smith 5:33

There is a lot of that just chasing the next GS level, right? Rather than, hey, I want to be in that position to be able to make a difference. We we all want to make more money. We all want to move up to our careers, want to do that. Um, but there's certain positions that have a lot of influence and they have a lot of impact. You know, the the suicide rate amongst staff, it's it's terrible. I mean, uh we've the staff rated this agency the

Staff Wellness And Culture Crisis

Smith 6:03

worst place to work in all of federal government. You've heard me talk about that. I I had said that and I said, hey, that's been for the last two years, and somebody around here corrected and said, just so you know, we've been last or next to last for almost 10 years. And I thought, wow, what does that mean, you know, for this agency? And then I think through leadership and the importance of that. How do you see the importance of leadership when it comes to how our staff wellness is?

Starr 6:32

It's extremely important. And I think our staff know that we can't wave a magic wand and give them the pay increase immediately. We can't wave the magic wand and fill the 78 vacancies at Hazleton immediately. But if we're out there making the personal connection with them, being out there with them during their long days when they're on their double shift after they've already worked all night, I think that is what matters to them that they see that in their leader. They know there's challenges. They can be accepting of the challenges, although they want to see change, but they want to know that someone's in it with them to see them through it.

Smith 7:18

And you know, this month, I don't this probably won't be when uh the the podcast airs, but this month being Suicide Awareness Month, right? And so uh it's it's something that we really need to think about the health of the organization and the people in it, right? We've got people out there doing very difficult jobs that are uh working difficult situations away from their families, working double shifts, as you said, and and that's something Director Marshall and I are really focused on. How do we make a healthy workplace? How do we create a place that somebody can come into and know that their job is making a difference? They're making a difference in the world. It's not just a job, that they really truly are having an impact. How do you feel like your job has been able to have an impact? And you can talk both staff

Leadership Choices And Accountability

Smith 8:07

and inmates as you've come up through the system.

Starr 8:12

Like you said, we're in a position to influence, either positively or negatively. And every day you have to go in there and make that choice, how you're gonna lead. Hit the ground running, go out, see the problems, don't turn a blind eye to the problem and hope that it doesn't rise to the level that you'll be called or the director will be called. Go out, take a look at them, address them with the resources that you have. And I think everything's related. We've talked about succession planning and um building leaders, but I think getting the right people in the positions also helps with wellness because people are going to enjoy coming to work. Um, yeah. So I think everything's related.

Smith 8:59

Yeah. If you don't like coming to work, if you're you know, the the number one reason people leave corrections is not because of pay, even though it's terrible, right? I'd say terrible, not enough. Um they they don't leave because of the danger of inmates, which you would think that that would be higher up on the list. That's not even on the list. No. Um they leave because of direct line supervisors. The supervisor they report to, that's why they leave. So that's why it's so important, right? To get those right people in the in the right places. Uh are there any leaders that you look back or that you've um that you might look up to, that you might say that you would point to in the past. Anybody you could think of?

Starr 9:44

Um, I'll highlight my uh previous boss in the North Central region, Mr. Madvocian. He was a great uh regional director to us wardens in the field. And under his leadership, that is when I became more results-driven and data driven um to to hone my own leadership skills. So he could he comes to mind first.

Smith 10:11

That was very good. You know, you are uh I I mean, I haven't asked, I don't know how, Jar, I don't know where you're at in your career time, but uh you look young, so he looks like you've got years, some some some time left. What do you hope for this agency? What what what what would you like to see happen? Bigger picture, you know. Feel free to say whatever or however.

Starr 10:34

I don't know that I've actually thought about that yet,

Why People Leave: Supervisors Matter

Starr 10:37

but that's a good that's a good question. Um I hope that we're off of the bottom of the list. So I hope that we do our part to get the right leaders in place to get us staffed and competitive in the law enforcement field again. And I hope that we do what we've always done when it comes to programming and rehabilitating, but that we amplify it.

Smith 11:16

And uh the you know, i i it's director marsh and I inherited a very difficult situation. Uh there were more than one call to say, what are you doing? Why would you take this job? Why would you get involved? Because there's been a lot of, you know, difficulties, right? There's been a lot of difficulties in funding, there's been a lot of difficulty staffing and all these things. Uh but yet when I meet people like yourself or others that are in this fight, that are working hard, that are working hard for this agency to make the improvements, it it is motivational. The director and I talk about it all the time just last uh last night we were talking about how motivational it is. Um what is what is the motivation behind what you do? Why do why do you do what you do? Why, why would you accept the job moving up the level? Uh I mean, obviously it pays more, but I think for you it's a lot bigger than that. Why, why have you continued on this path?

Starr 12:15

From the time I started as a teacher, and I came into it thinking, oh, this there's no way this will be as rewarding as teaching young kids. Um, but it turned out it was to me. And I grew to love the agency, I grew to love the people, and every place I've been, I've had

Mentors And Data-Driven Management

Starr 12:35

the opportunity to meet and make connections with the good people. And now that I'm and I'm extremely grateful to be in a position to to lead them, I just want to be able to continue to give like people did to me. And I want people to love their job as much as I love it and as much as I did 21 years ago when I started.

Smith 12:58

Well, I'm gonna tell you, shout out to all the teachers out there. I know. I I think seeing you, I hope many of them find, you know, motivation to see you in this role. One of my favorite leaders as I've studied across the states uh is in Missouri. That the number two, the deputy director, was actually a principal in education inside of one of the prisons. When uh the state director then, Ann PreSythe, identified him and started moving him up very quickly up the ladder. And he's doing a phenomenal job there. And so it now meeting other leaders, seeing those in education, uh I I think that I think there's there's some there's some real qualities there that you get in that in that uh field that help prepare you, obviously, for leaders, because you guys are doing a great job. So there are.

Starr 13:48

And we say once a teacher, always a teacher. There you go. Or a tight-knit group, too.

Smith 13:52

There you there you go. Well, I just I I want to thank you for for doing this. Again, this is different for the BLP, right? This being able to communicate, uh being able to talk openly about some of these things, being able to talk about leadership, being able to talk about the good and the bad. Uh but I think it's important. I think it's I think it's important for uh your your coworkers and others to be able to see uh what's really going on. I I believe that as leaders we should be accountable, right? I I I tell

Hopes For The Agency’s Future

Smith 14:20

people when they've told me you don't want to do recalls uh this big. And I said, well, I I believe that that's our responsibility as leaders to be out there. I I I think we should be accountable to people. We don't need to hide in our offices and those things to to just be protected. We need to be able to answer to the people that we're responsible to. And and so I I really appreciate you being willing to do this. You're you're now going to be leading how many prisons are in that?

Starr 14:50

21 facilities.

Smith 14:52

Yeah, 21 facilities and a lot of staff represented in that. And and I can tell you I've already gotten some messages from the field excited. Uh, people have known you from other places. And so I'm really excited for others to be able to get to know you. But I just want to say thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for the crew that you've chosen. Thank you for uh the work that you've done inside of this agency, and and I'm really excited. I know Director Marshall and I were talking about it last night. We're both really excited about your leadership and what this says uh for this the direction of this agency.

Starr 15:21

Thank you also, and it's a true blessing to be in my new position.

Smith 15:25

Yeah, we'll look forward to working with you. Thank you very much. Thank you.