Transparency Talks
Dive deep into the power of honesty, openness, and authenticity. The Federal Bureau of Prisons first ever podcast, Transparency Talks, will pull back the curtain on real stories, tough conversations, and the truth behind corrections. Transparency isn’t just a buzzword, it’s a way of life. Join us and discover how clarity can enhance communication and build stronger connections with the public and community partners.
Transparency Talks
S1E6 | Real Talk: Investigations Uncovered
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Note: Joshua J. Smith served as Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the time this interview was recorded.
Federal prison accountability is often talked about in headlines, but it becomes real in the day-to-day work of the Office of Inspector General (OIG). On this episode of Transparency Talks, Sandra D. Barnes, Deputy Assistant Inspector General, explains how OIG oversight supports the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) by identifying criminal misconduct and administrative violations that threaten staff safety, inmate safety, and public trust.
Why The OIG Matters
SPEAKER_01All right, we're back with another episode of Transparency Talks. And today I'm very excited about the guest that we have, Ms. Sandra Barnes with the Office of Inspector General. You know, when we came, Director Marshall and I came into this agency, a lot of talk about the Inspector General, you guys' role. And I think that this will be very beneficial to a lot of people to help them understand the role that you guys play. I think in the past, maybe there has been this different type of relationship over the season, right? We we could even hear it here. And Director Marshall and I said from the very beginning, hey, we're excited about this relationship. Uh we're excited about the role that you guys play and how that can help us and how we get this agency to where it should be. I just want you to start out, maybe just talk about your position, what your role is, and the role of the inspector general's office.
OIG Scope And Case Volume
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, thanks for having me. Definitely appreciate it. So I am the Deputy Assistant Inspector General for the Investigations Division. Our agency, we have multiple divisions. We have an audit division, an evaluations and inspections division, oversight and review, and our investigations division. So I am responsible for overseeing all of our criminal and administrative misconduct investigations across the United States. So we have uh nine different regions. Uh, two of those are specialty offices. We have a cyber investigations office as well as a fraud detection office. We can reach any state, any prison, any facility. Um, and we also conduct overseas investigations as well.
SPEAKER_01You guys are definitely busy. And I think you're really busy with the BOP.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we're definitely very busy with the BOP. We receive about 17,000 complaints a year, and 80% of those are related to the Bureau of Prisons.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
The Complaints They See Most
SPEAKER_01So what types of complaints do you guys deal with? What are some of the things that you see uh traditionally coming across your desk?
SPEAKER_00A lot of the complaints that we get that have criminal allegations deal with introduction of contraband, bribery, excessive use of force, and sexual abuse. Those are the main categories for our criminal cases with the prison.
SPEAKER_01And you know, how do these generally come to you? How do you generally learn about these uh issues?
SPEAKER_00Well, we get a lot of mail, as you could imagine. Um we get about 300 to 500 pieces of mail a month. Most of those are from inmates. Uh we also have our PRIA email box that we receive a lot of emails from the inmates on in that way. And we get people who fill out the hotline on our website portal, a complaint in in that way. And sometimes they come from um congressman's office, um, refer things to us to look at.
SPEAKER_01Do you also get some from staff, other staff turning in system?
SPEAKER_00We get re We absolutely do. We get referrals from uh the BOP, the Office of Internal Affairs, they send stuff over. And sometimes when we're out at a prison doing other work, people will come up to us and give us information about a new allegation.
SPEAKER_01And when those investigations start, uh, because you know, we've we've all seen the cases, right? Well, they come across our desk, unfortunately, all too often.
How Investigations Move And End
SPEAKER_01Talk us through what that investigation process looks like.
SPEAKER_00So 95% of our cases start out as criminal cases. Serious criminal allegations uh come in. And I always like to explain to people that we're running two investigations for every case that we have. We're running the criminal investigation and looking at all the criminal allegations, as well as looking at all the administrative violations, so all the policy violations and things of that nature at the same time. And as we move through our case and we're working with the U.S. Attorney's Office, uh, whenever we present all the evidence that we have, um, they make a decision. If they want to prosecute the case, we move forward in that way. Um, if they decline to prosecute the case, we still continue with the administrative misconduct investigation. So whenever we write our final report, whether it got prosecuted or not, we include all of that information in our report for the Bureau of Prisons then to use that information to take whatever action they see fit. Um, a lot of employees think that if they resign or retire in the middle of the case, that it goes away, but that is not so. Um, we have indicted and arrested many people who had already resigned or retired.
SPEAKER_01You know, one of the things that has, I guess, surprises me is how surprised they are when they get caught. You know, we're working together a lot on several different things. You and I are getting to see each other on the screen a pretty good bit with some meetings, with some strategies that we're doing with institutions all across our country. And some of the intel we all are sharing and have, it's it's shocking some of the things that are happening. It's one of the things I think it's good for this podcast because our staff get to see this. And we know staff will be watching this that maybe had participated or know somebody that is participating in some of these things. You know, maybe talk us through some of those reactions that you get because you're you've been boots on the ground right in the prison. You're there when when you go in and do these investigations, when you walk these staff members out in handcuffs. Talk us through what some of that has been like.
How Corrupt Staff Get Caught
SPEAKER_00Well, I want to say that I respect what the employees do. It is a very, very hard job. It's tough. You know, I want to go home to my lovely husband every night. I'm sure everyone wants to go home to their families. We want to help people be able to be safe in the institutions and the inmates as well. So whenever we're investigating staff, a lot of times they think it's just them and the one inmate that they're, you know, bringing in contraband to or receiving payments. And um, that's just not the case. So, as a lot of all of your employees know, inmates know everything about each other. They know when a staff member is having sex with an inmate, they know who's getting contraband from staff members, they know who how it's getting paid. It's not the worry of just the one inmate that the staff member is dealing with. They usually get caught because everybody else knows, and either they're not getting a piece of that um benefit or they get upset with the staff member because they didn't get something they want, and now they're gonna tell someone. We have a lot of information that we get from all the peripheral players in the crime. Um, so as we get little tidbits of information, we just start building up our case, whether it's subpoenas for, you know, bank records, phone records, their Facebook account, their Gmail, we just have a lot of tools that we can gather all the evidence and they they just eventually get caught.
SPEAKER_01You know, just like many of the criminals we have inside, you know, you look at some of these things and you go, wow, you weren't that smart. And as we see, you know, the the role of um the digital currency, how that's changed. I mean, that that's really impacted uh the the Bureau of Prisons a lot. Uh it's it's really changed the game. You know, I'll tell you, I go out to a lot of prisons, probably a record amount at this time, and then there were about 40 institutions so far. And I can't tell you how many staff we've had come up to us, come up to me and thank me for Director Marshall and I really putting an emphasis on the corrupt staff, the staff that are not great team players, that are making their lives miserable. We're hearing it more and more every month of just that they're seeing investigations pick up, they're seeing us take things serious. We've been working a lot with our Internal Affairs Department, really trying to get that. We've still got a lot of work to do, but but we're really trying to get that into a better place.
Making Oversight A Partnership
SPEAKER_01How do you see the relationship with Bureau of Prisons and the Office of Inspector General working even better? How does this, you know, we've been trying already? How can we make that even more seamless and better?
SPEAKER_00It has been a really great relationship over the past many years, and it keeps improving. Um, I think a lot of that is just understanding the challenges of what staff have to deal with and, you know, our mission of getting the corrupt staff out. And I would say 98% of every agency's employees are wonderful employees. It's just the bad apples, you know, the 1%, 2% that just jeopardize everything. And so we have a great relationship with the Internal Affairs Office and the wardens around the country. They have welcomed us because they don't want anything to jeopardize the safety of their institution as well. So we have a lot of communication with them. We try to be as informative as possible. Um, so there's no unknowns. Because I think the more you communicate, and as much as we can tell people, you know, why we're here, this is what we're looking into, it kind of takes some of the mystery out of, oh my gosh, what is happening? Um, but the relationship has really, really grown. And even with our evaluations and inspection division and audit division, you know, a lot of what they do, the no-notice inspections or the audits on infrastructure, we're trying to help give you a product to then possibly ask for more funds to fix those things. Or if there's a weak process, you know, hey, this is great. We can make things better for all the other employees. So we really try to be very communicative and um, you know, help the Bureau of Prisons get what you need and ensure the safety of your employees and the inmates as well.
SPEAKER_01You know, the standards of federal law enforcement should be high, right? I mean, they are. There's a lot of responsibility doing what we do inside of the Bureau of Prisons. I say it all the time. It's a role that I think society, Congress don't really understand one, and then they don't really understand how important it is. You know, 97% of the people we have in the BOP are going to be returning to our society. They're going to be our neighbors one day. So everything that happens inside of there is very important. The examples they see, you know, how they're how they're uh treated, how they're interacted with. Um let me ask you
Cell Phones And New Crimes
SPEAKER_01this. What have you seen over the years how the role of cell phones have changed inside uh the BLP and with your role with it with the Office of Inspector General?
SPEAKER_00Cell phones um have always been a problem. Um I know uh the bribe payment can be very high depending on uh how available they are to get it to the prison. So I would say maybe 10, 12 years ago, inmates were using, mostly using cell phones for movies, videos, pictures, communicating with their loved ones. And over the years, um, we've seen more of the cell phones being used to commit other crimes. Um, you know, child porn on the cell phones, or contacting outside people and still making um drug deals happen. Or, you know, we've had a case on a murder for hire, and it was the contraband cell phone that was used to set that up and to target another staff member. It has definitely evolved. So they're not victimless crimes. Um, you know, we had a case many years ago where they were shipping um cell phones in cereal boxes, but you know, 20 to 30 cell phones in one cereal box and they palletized it. And I mean, it it they flooded the prison, and now you have inmates communicating with other inmates across different housing units. And then now there's a safety issue when they go out. It's definitely been used to commit more crime as opposed to communicate with family and not want to use their accounts to pay for it.
SPEAKER_01But we've been talking about different ways that we go and interact at different prisons. I mean, it just word spreads quickly with cell phones uh through different prisons, through different uh housing units and networks. This agency has it has had its budget pretty flat the last few years. And as costs have increased, I've noticed there's, as we've come in and looked, less and less money being spent targeting those things when in fact they're they're they're getting worse and worse and worse, causing more damage. And so I'm hopeful that Director Marshall and I can be able to make some of those investments where we need to. If you've noticed, we're putting out almost daily now when we're catching contraband coming into institutions from all kinds of different ways. Uh some staff, we obviously work those cases, but from drones, from throwovers, from uh small visitation, but uh I mean the staff in our agency are dealing with an absolute just deluge of this contraband coming in, and it's a real challenge. What do you wish people knew in our agency especially? But what do you wish people knew about your office and the role it plays and what it does?
SPEAKER_00I think the most important thing is that we are actually here to help make the BOP better by getting out bad apples who can jeopardize people's safety, such as bringing in drugs, bringing in, we've had firearms, actual firearms brought in by staff or inmates, weapons. You know, we've had staff exposed to fentanyl because drugs are in the institution. We are here to help make the prisons, um, the environment, a better working environment, just better all around, even with our inspections and audits. You know, we also investigate contractors and people who are um taking advantage of government contracts. You know, we do a lot of fraud cases on that to help the prison save money. We're we're not coming in to try to just, I'm coming in to get you. We we disprove allegations all the time, too. So it not everything we open turns out to be so. But we we really do want to help make the BOP a better place for everyone.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll just tell you I I think I can speak for Director Marshall and myself. We've really appreciated the working relationship since we started. One of the things I've said is it's it's not our job to defend the Bureau of Prisons. It's our job to fix it. That's what we're here for. We're here to improve it. And uh and and it does a lot of great things already. I mean, the the mission as I've traveled around, seeing some of the great staff, seeing the roles that they play, what they do. They have been many have been very proud that we're going after some of the some of the more difficult situations, the those that aren't doing well or aren't representing this agency well. And so, you know, we've worked for a long time with the union inside of the Bureau of Prisons, and uh you're aware that that is not the case uh anymore, thanks to President Trump's executive order.
Union Friction And Interview Reality
SPEAKER_01And, you know, I've always said I'm not pro or against, I I just I think that it's been a long time since Bureau of Prisons has worked together as a team. There has been this dynamic that is just I think unions really started out well, and then it it has just gotten vitriolic. You just saw some of the emails that we were were getting before. How has that the union dynamic changed or how has it affected your work or improving now?
SPEAKER_00Well, we've definitely had some challenges with the union in the past, such as them trying to interfere with the interviews that we're doing, you know, stopping our interviews in the middle, you know, advising employees not to answer even in a compelled interview. So, you know, there's issues there. Um, a compelled interview, an employees required to answer our questions, or they can be disciplined for it. So that I feel like the union has in the past, on occasion, give them bad advice. Um, you know, sometimes the union uh will act as um, I don't want to say a lawyer, but give maybe some legal advice or from their experience, because they are experienced in many different situations uh dealing with employee matters. But whenever an employee discusses their case with a union representative, that is not an attorney-client discussion. We can actually put the union person in front of the grand jury to testify what the employee told them, or we can compel the union representative to tell us what the employee told them. And so it really helps if the employee answers for themselves. I understand if they want to talk about it with someone and get some employee relation um concerns addressed. But um, when you're talking about a subject's, you know, freedom or further discipline action, I think they really need to try to make decisions on their own. And um, we try to respect that though. Um, some union representatives uh in the past have been a little, I would say, over the top and animated whenever they're dealing with us. And we try to be very professional. You know, we don't go in yelling and and flailing our arms when we're doing interviews. And that has occurred by union representatives in the past, not all, because there were some very, very good ones. And I'm not, yeah, these are kind of far a few and in between, but it hinders the process and it really disrupts the employee and what they're going through in their mind when they're sitting in front of us. You know, we try to be very caring about that as well. And then just some of the policy process changes, you know, whenever we make recommendations to change a policy or a procedure, and mostly that's our audit and evaluations and inspection division, there was this process where the union, it would just take so long. And it's we're trying to help you guys implement a change to help all the employees, but it was just a fight to fight. And so, you know, I don't have that firsthand knowledge being on that side of it. I'm always on this side, but I appreciate the great reps that were out there that we had to deal with, and they were very respectful, but it has been challenging over the years at just various institutions.
SPEAKER_01The comments that we've heard since the union has been canceled from other bargaining employees as they were railing against them saying, I told you this should have happened. You guys have been wasting your work time, you've been doing this. And one of the biggest things I hear is you've been protecting the bad employees. What experience have you seen with that? Uh I mean, have you seen, I'm sure, from your perspective, because that this is bargaining employees talking about uh this openly, social media and those things, saying you've been protecting the bad ones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So some of the really great representatives that were out there, when they would take a break in the middle of the interview, the employee, they go out in the hall, maybe the employee confessed, and they would have a conversation with the employee. You need to go in there and just tell them what you did. Like, we want this guy out of here. He's he's bad news, he's you know, committed these crimes. Um, and they were very much for not protecting that employee. And then we've had experience with other representatives who, and I I would hate to assume, but they really wanted to be re-elected as the president. So they would just fight tooth and nail. It didn't matter if this person confessed they committed these crimes or that they had sex with inmates or were bringing in meth or, you know, weapons and cell phones. They just kept fighting and fighting and fighting. And I I would, I would just wonder like, why would you want this employee to still work here? They're jeopardizing every other employee here. So it's very, very frustrating. But we have dealt with union reps like that. And it's just very disheartening for the other employees who are there at that institution.
SPEAKER_01You know, since Director Marshall and I've been here working with Attorney General Pam Bondi, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, uh, they they have been just uh very intentional about us cleaning up waste, fraud, and abuse. Full stop, no negotiation. And you know, for the first time, we're we're taking an even working to get prosecutions from staff members, even from things that wouldn't be, like cell phones, right? Something that normally AUSAs are not picking up, we're picking them up. They're being intentional. And thanks to the Attorney General, I mean it has been just great to be able to see that. You know, we're coming and and you're coming. And and frankly, we're helping. We're all involved working together. What would you say to to some of these staff members that might think that they're okay right now, that they're doing this, getting away with it, and they've been getting away with it.
SPEAKER_00Well I would say just past experience, we um we usually have in our intelligence box um the same employees' names, um, re repeat names that come up often. We may have two cases, three cases, four cases on the same person. And maybe we didn't have enough evidence the first time or the second time, but eventually we will have enough and they will be indicted and arrested and prosecuted. And because of the AG and the DAG pushing out to all the U.S. attorney's office the importance of what we do. We even have districts across the United States who didn't really take a lot of false statement cases. And now we are seeing more of that. So if they lie to us, they will be prosecuted. And that's 18 USC 1001 false statements. So we have seen that across the board. So if they um or even false log entries, false PRA reports, false use of force reports, those are now being prosecuted under false statements or false writings depending on the U.S. attorney's office. You know, another crime that's not often seen, but um a few cases have started to uh kind of show that this could be a choice for someone who knows someone else is committing a crime. So it's 18 USC4 misprison of a felony. So if you know someone's a committing a crime and you don't do anything about it, you can also be charged. You may not be charged with conspiracy because you're not part of it, but you are aware that someone's committing a crime, such as you know another correctional officer knowing the cell phones are coming in and just turning their head and just allowing inmates to use the phones and they're committing crimes. So now you know they're using that they committed a crime with the phone. Now they're committing other crimes. So that that is an avenue that we have as well.
Closing Thanks And Shared Goals
SPEAKER_01I just want to say thank you. I I think I speak on behalf of Director Marshall, myself, and many of the great staff that I have heard from as I've been out in the field thanking us for working towards this corruption. Thank you for the work that you do, the the the Inspector General, your entire office, and we're really looking forward to this partnership growing and and working with each other even more to make this a great workplace, a place that people can be proud of and an agency people can hold their head high to be to be involved with. So thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. I appreciate it
