S1EP7| Year One: Progress, Pressure, and Purpose

Note: Joshua J. Smith served as Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the time this interview was recorded.

A prison system doesn’t fall into crisis overnight, and it doesn’t come back with a single speech either. On this episode of Transparency Talks, we sit down with Director William K. Marshall III for a look at his first year leading the Federal Bureau of Prisons and what it’s like to walk into a $600 million deficit, deep staffing shortages, crumbling facilities, leadership vacancies, and then face the longest government shutdown in U.S. history without slowing the mission. 

Transcript

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A Year In The Director’s Seat

Smith 0:09

All right, we are back for another episode of Transparency Talks. This time, this is the very first guest that we've had on twice, Director Marshall, where we're going to discuss the first year as the director of the BOP. How are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

I think we're um I think we're doing okay. I uh, you know, we uh we saw uh the tip of the mountain when we first got here, and uh now I think we can see at least the whole mountain anyway.

Smith 0:41

So let's just talk about that. Let's that's a great place to start because we walked in to an interesting situation, didn't we?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

We we did, and and it was um, you know, the the urgency feels so much greater when you first get here. Um you you want to try to do everything all at once, and and you're good for me to um let's prioritize what our needs are, let's put out uh as many fires as we can, the the smaller fires, and then start looking at the bigger picture. Um so coming in here and just understanding what the reality of it was versus the perception that we talk about all the time. Um, that was the biggest thing for me. Um it's kind of like um, you know, when you're playing quarterback, the game's moving so fast, and you don't really start to make up any ground until it slows down for you. And so I think right now it's slowed down to the point where we can actually get our arms around it. And I really think that um we're starting to make some real progress. I feel pretty good about that.

The Deficit And Broken Foundations

Smith 1:46

So let's talk about what we inherited, okay? Because I think, you know, every day that you go in this job, you can kind of forget where it all started.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

That's why that's why you keep lists, and I keep going back to those, because you forget, right? I mean, we talked about the list that we started with.

Smith 2:01

And then a lot of people don't understand, right? They think you can just come in and get stuff going day one. Let me tell you, six hundred million dollar deficit, a tremendously understaffed workforce, obviously underfunded. A workforce that has voted this place the worst place to work in all the federal government for the last two years and either last or second to the last for a total of ten years. Facilities in disrepair, we you and I talk about this all the time. Like most can't even understand unless you're in those facilities being able to see four billion dollar backlog. We had wardens and associate warden vacancies all across the country. Then, really soon after we got here, the longest shutdown in this first year.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I never went through anything like that before.

Smith 2:50

That that that has experienced in U.S. history. And a staff that's just going through some really tough time, I mean, being burnt out, you know, sometimes very low staffing numbers, and you could just see tired, upset, frustrated. And then we walk in the door. What was it like as you come in walking into such a difficult challenge?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, I felt I felt pretty comfortable with the overall situation when I talk about not specific numbers, but the situation because I inherited something similar back home. It wasn't to the to the degree or to the size, but it was very similar. Um, I think that uh the approaches that I was able to take, they applied on both sides. Um so that was encouraging. I thought I could uh I I knew of a way out of it. Now keep in mind that $600 million is still there. Um, you know, and then you talk about the government shutdown. We just realized that we probably weren't gonna get the budget that the president had proposed for us. And uh, you know, the president has been so supportive of us um and and wanting to get us to a different level than what we are. Um, but right as we're learning that we're probably not going to get the budget he proposed, well, guess what? We're gonna shut down. Now, when people say we shut down, my I had friends and family saying, What are you doing during the shutdown? I said, Are you kidding me? I haven't stopped. I mean, this we we are working probably harder now to keep things afloat than we were before. And and I was expecting, you know, countrywide, you know, lockdowns. Um, I was expecting a lot of noise, a lot of chaos. And what what I found was they just kept right on moving along. Like everybody was used to it except for me. Like I was the rookie, right, when it came to a shutdown. You were there with me as well. We'd never experienced anything like this. So we didn't know what to expect. Um, everyone around the table, the executive team table, kept telling me, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Now, what you discovered and what I realized was I was disappointed to see there wasn't a real plan in place for those things for those who've experienced those in the past. Um, so when you go through those types of things, I think it makes you stronger. Um, I think it it makes things more clear for you going forward. Some of these things that you talked about, the money, the staffing, um, the facilities, we're still dealing with it. These are things that aren't going to go away anytime real soon, but we are starting to lay the foundation uh going forward to fix these things, and I think to fix them for long term. Now I think that's the key that we fix things that are going to be fixed. As I say, I don't mind helping you, but stay helped. Okay. So we want to try to fix these things, lay this foundation out to where it lasts for years and years to come, long after you and I are gone.

Smith 5:42

So what are some of the things that you learned in the first year being the director of the Bureau of Prisons?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

I think the first thing was I was surprised that the situation of the Bureau was a little worse than I thought. Um, you and I were told a lot of scary stories about um the situation we were coming into. And we were asked several times, at least I knew I was, why do you even want this position? Why would you want to take on this challenge? And me knowing you and you knowing me, we were excited about the challenge. But but it was a fair question.

Smith 6:16

We had several directors, I mean, of states, several former directors here going, This isn't what you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

And and I had several people that were interviewing us for these positions or or, you know, meeting with us, asking us the same questions. Maybe somebody smarter would have gone the other way. I don't know. Um, but but the opportunity to work for the president, to work for President Donald J. Trump and to work uh for Attorney General Pam Bondi and Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, it was just so intriguing and just such a fascinating opportunity for me. There was no way I could turn away from that. But the the situation of the Bureau, and I'm talking about the operations, um, the the day-to-day uh activities were a little worse than I thought, but the people that we had were better than I was led to believe. And so uh there was a lot of talent in the in the in the talent pool or on the team. Some of them just weren't in the right positions to make us as good as we could be and to make themselves as good as they could be. So getting those people in place and giving them a true sense of leadership. Sometimes when an organization, they've got what they need, but they're lost. They just don't have a clear path or a clear direction. And when we came in, for better or for worse, we had a plan. Even if it was a bad plan that we pivoted off of, we had a plan. So we had a clear sense of direction, and I think uh the staff appreciated that.

Smith 7:40

It has been refreshing seeing uh some of our staff who maybe weren't in positions to or weren't encouraged to really think outside of the box. Uh it's been so exciting getting some of the emails. I mean, we opened up for the first time ever uh an email communication. I think we're over 1,800 right now, and you and I both talk about these often as we read them, seeing some of the best ideas from the very people that are right here doing it every day. And it's been neat empowering them to kind of walk through those ideas and present them.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

And I think the biggest thing that you and I have been able to to do from those um from those emails, number one, we read them all. Number two, we respond to them, not in a generic automatic response. We actually respond to them. But we also have the ability to put them to use, but if we can't, we tell them why. And I think that's one of the biggest things that we've been able to do because most of the workforce, most of the employees, uh they just want to be seen and heard. And the fact that we would take their ideas, um, consider them, if it doesn't work, tell them why. I mean, they understand that. And if you give them a good, honest answer, and I think that's one of the biggest impacts we've been able to make. When we have an employee stop here and they tell me they've never met a director, never spoken to a director, and I bring them into my office and sit them at the table, you know, in front of the Capitol building there, you know, at the wind, it they're they're in awe, but I want to hear what they've got to say. I don't just want to shake a hand, pat them on the back, and say, see you later. It means something to me that they would want to meet me, that they would want to take the time to spend with me. So I want to make sure they understand that it is important um that I listen to what they have to say. You've been in you've been in the Bureau 20 years, you probably know a thing or two, I would, I would think. And uh you try to take that and you try to run with it, uh, but give them just clear communication. I think that's been the biggest thing that you and I've been able to do is that we're genuine and honest. They may not like the answer. My grandfathers were hard truth kind of guys. I mean, it was like a sledgehammer to the forehead. I mean, if you didn't want to know the answer, don't ask the question. And so I think maybe we got a little bit better bedside manner than that, but we'll give you the answer. And um, if you don't like it, we can talk about it. But, you know, we're gonna we're gonna give you a clear direction.

Smith 10:00

I think they deserve the truth.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

They absolutely do. I had a situation where I went over on the hill, and I won't mention the the specific names, but we had a, you know, we we had a member of Congress that that's been around a while, and uh the idea was to go over and talk to this individual and just kick the can down the road. And I said, I'm not doing that. That's not who I am. And when I walked in, I instantly had a connection with this guy, kind of like a grandfather. And I showed him the respect that he deserved, and I didn't give him any promises that I couldn't come through on. And he understood that, he accepted that. And it was probably, I was told from the people that were with me, probably the best meeting they've ever had with him, because I wasn't going to tell him I was gonna do something I knew in the back of my mind I wasn't going to. I will not do that. Now, he may have not liked the answers or the or the result of the question, but that was the truth. That was the truth where I was setting that day. And I think he understood that and respected that.

Leading With Truth And Setting Pace

Smith 10:58

You know, something you say that I think is uh interesting when people are asking us, you know, my gosh, big system, how are you keeping up with the pace of things? And I I often say, I didn't work this hard climbing out of poverty. Uh, you know, we're we're over here grinding, but it's not because we're reacting. Uh I and I love your answer. What do you say when somebody goes, Man, Bill, how how are you handling this uh pace that uh it just is putting you through?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Well, it was just like when they were talking to us about the shutdown. I'm like, I mean, the the the pace is what we're setting. You know, like I think before we got here, the bureau was kind of riding around behind the pace car, you know, waiting for that green flag. Well, the green flag is dropped now, okay? We're we're racing and we're leading this pack. And we're pushing, I think, the Bureau farther and faster than it's ever been pushed before. Some of our staff get a little uncomfortable with that. Um, I understand that. We're not here to break any rules, okay? We're we're not here to to violate any laws or policy. Uh, but we are pushing and pushing and pushing because we know, I mean, Josh, we've been here a year. I mean, in a blink of an eye, we know that we're we've only got a certain amount of time to get things done. So we're the ones setting this pace. Um, you know, I tell individuals that ask me that, hang on, buckle up, hang on. Because I mean, we're going as fast as we can go. We're pushing things as fast as we can go. Sometimes I get a little ahead of myself, and and you know, we got to be reeled in a little bit uh because of certain whether it's financial restrictions or staffing restrictions, but we're the ones setting the pace. And uh uh, you know, you push me, I push you. You and I have difficult conversations sometimes, but we always come back to the same goal, right? We're all in this together, and and I don't think people appreciate or understand the love that we have for one another, that we can fuss at each other, um, but it's always respectful. And I love that. I love the fact that you challenge me and you push me. Uh, sometimes you push me to the point where I'm not really comfortable with that, and that's that's unusual for me because usually I'm the aggressive one, right? But I really appreciate that of you, and I think that's what you do for me to make me better, and hopefully I do that for you.

Smith 13:02

You know what I love is is that it's not about us, it's about this agency.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

100%.

Smith 13:08

And so if either of us are debating or talking about something and and and doing it, the whole goal is the the success of this agency, the success of the people in it.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Yeah, the difficult conversations aren't about us.

Smith 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

It's about what we're doing for the Bureau. And and I think that uh hopefully everybody sees the passion we have for it. When I go around to the facilities and I talk to the uh to the staff and the the officers and and whatnot, I hope they see how genuine I am in regards to how successful I want them to be. I want them to be looked at like they deserve to be looked at. I want them to be looked at uh for all the important work that they do. And I have a real passion for it. And if I felt like that, I was just kind of going through the emotions, I wouldn't be here. I'll be honest with you. I have no interest in that. I have no interest in having a job or a position that doesn't matter. I want to be challenged. You want to be challenged. Um, you know, we can honestly say neither one of us really have to be here. You know, we're here, we're spending time away from our families. Um, that I, you know, a time that we consider very valuable, but we're here because we want to see this bureau succeed. We've taken on this challenge. I've never quitted anything in my life. I'm sure you haven't either. Um, and so those difficult, I mean, think about the hours and hours that we've spent together having difficult conversations over nothing but this bureau. What can we do for the people of this bureau to make them happier, to make them healthier, to have a better work environment, and to have a better bureau?

Smith 14:35

So you got in a little before I did. And and you've been in law enforcement and corrections now for thirty This is my thirty-sixth year, believe it or not. Yeah. Okay. So this is my first year. Yeah. I've been around it, been involved in it. Right. I've been studying this for a long time. And I firmly believe, and frankly, we're getting to hear it all across the country, that your first year in this agency has probably been the most transformational year ever in the first year of a correctional environment, much less one of the most difficult environments there are to be able to create change in. I'm gonna go just through a few things. Uh because you and I don't even remember some of these as we go through because we're knocking these things out as well. Um so we have, for the first time ever, conducted warden interviews. Who would have thought that that they weren't interviewed before? Okay. We had about 39 vacant when we walked in, associate wardens, 21 wardens. Soon after we got here after some of the the retirements processed and those things, 65 associate wardens vacant, 29 warden positions vacant out of about 120 prisons. We have conducted 93 warden interviews. Okay, it's actually taking a little more than that. We hired 14. We have just approved uh a little over 20 more, so that'll be somewhere around 34 warden positions hired, about 28% since you started. 228 associate warden interviews, out of which we've hired 59. We've now began, even in warden interviews transferring, we don't even co-sign on those. If they're gonna move to another institution, been hiring them, or been interviewing them. Facilities. We've obviously done a lot to take over that. Uh you told me we can't do it. I remember sitting in a meeting with you one day, and you're like, hey, this cannot exist. This cannot be. And I remember feeling your fire on it. I don't know if you know that, but it was about a week later. I just said, now I'm taking it over because I just saw your passion and saying we're not doing it. We have already built strike force teams. We've completed four uh major projects, saved about $20 million. Six of the eight strike force teams have used inmate labor, and we've been changing the things around that. Between us, forget this, sixty-three combined visits out to the institutions. We've conducted uh you've been able to get out and do 11 staff recalls, even with all you've got going on. I've done 30, so 41 staff recalls total. We've done staff recall for everybody in Central Office now.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Those have been really impactful. Well, I hear a lot of great positive information for that.

Smith 17:34

Out of the things that I just mentioned, and and maybe end up talking about what we've learned at these staff recalls, when I think for the first time, we hold our staff recalls and we actually let them speak. We don't just run through, hey, make a little one-hour presentation or walk through. In fact, I don't think they did staff recalls for quite a while on the director level. Out of those things, uh leadership, uh, staff recalls, what are some of the things that stick out to you that you might be even the more most proud of?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Well, I th I think, you know, getting out to the facilities was important. I know it was important back in my home state uh when I was able to get out because um, you know, coming off COVID and different reasons, there wasn't very uh there wasn't a lot of leadership uh at the at the top level going to the facilities. But I think getting to the facilities like you and I have and walking the hallways and when we talk to somebody, and I mean somebody, I'm talking about our team members, our staff, really wanting to listen to what they're giving us. I learned so much from talking with staff while at a facility that they will openly talk to you when you become when you make yourself approachable, that they wouldn't normally say in in and maybe even in an email, because they get that face to face with you. Um, I hope that everybody believes and understands how approachable we are. And when I break away from the pack to go talk to somebody, because I I I just consciously can't walk by somebody and just give them a flip of a hay or whatever. I want to I want to talk to them, find out how long they've been there. And you will get what is important from them. Trying to get the facilities in working order, these little things that drive our employees crazy, they they deserve to work in a safe, uh, healthy environment. They they shouldn't have to deal with those little mundane things with, you know, door locking systems not taking, you know, not working the right way, with with ceilings leaking, with plumbing leaking, fire suppression systems that aren't acting the right way, things like that that they shouldn't have to worry about because they've got so much to deal with on safety and security. The type of structure that you've put together with the leadership of Justin Thornton, that is really starting to take shape. And I'm really hearing a lot of positive things from that as well. They are doing amazing. And and when I hear, when I talk to outside stakeholders, and yeah, I talked to one just the other day, and he said, Let me tell you how much I love Justin Thornton. I said, Well, how you'd have a hard time loving him more than I do. And I know Josh does too. I said, because they're doing some amazing work. And you know, it's it's just the leading the charge, but there's a lot of great work going on by a lot of other people as well. But just the just the um the the the equity that we've already gained with the Bureau by just being out there and and and showing that we have a genuine love for for what we're doing. But I I really think that's probably been the biggest impact, like immediately uh that we've done, be able to walk the halls.

Fixing Operations Through Field Visits

Smith 20:19

We've definitely learned a lot, been out there, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

It's it's been amazing because, you know, there's what I call corrections 101, where it's it is corrections. I mean, it's no matter where you are, that's what the corrections are. You know, we had uh another state uh director here yesterday, and they had the same same things going on, so we're able to share things. But to see it at the level that we do it at and the the other things that we do beyond the corrections 101, um, you know, I've learned a lot in in response. I've been able to help, I think, uh so a as you have as well.

Smith 20:53

So a few other things. I mean, and these are all uh uh major things on the inmates side. Uh we've processed over a million dollars in donations from outside stakeholders. That's never been done before. People saying, hey, we want to be involved. Uh some of them have been to help develop our leaders. We've got prison fellowship that that donated, uh, where we've got wardens going through their uh wardens uh exchange program. Uh some of it has been to the inmates and things like that. We increased the phone minutes right off the bat uh from 310 to 510 so people, inmates can stay connected more to their families. Uh commissary increases has been both those numbers have existed for a long time. Uh where even as the prices have gone up, now they're able to be able to spend more of that money. Um the a massive thing that that we're really close to being able to lock in should be locked in here very soon. Tablets. Most people can't imagine how much work and focus we've had to put on on tablets. And then one other thing. I found out that already this quarter we've had more volunteers serving in the prisons, the hours that they've served, than half of last the first half of last year. So already creating more engagement and those things. And then first step back. First step back, something that was important to the president and and many stakeholders on both sides of the aisle that worked really hard on that, yet it hadn't been implemented. Now you've got Rick Stover, you guys have built an entire team over there. Uh and and I know you you've got your sleeves rolled up into that every day working on the calculator. Out of those things, you know, what are some of the things that stand out? Because again, we're grinding through these, we we do them, and then we go, oh well, we we did accomplish that.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

You know, we we have a real um intentionality when it comes to FSA. That was one of the biggest things that was talked about when you and I uh were going through the process of being where we are. I realized how important it was to the president immediately. You know, when we were talking to the uh individuals that were that were interviewing us and meeting with us in regards to these jobs. The fact that when I came in that we were kind of pioneering a lot of these things with FSA was kind of shocking to me because it'd been around for a little while. But, you know, and you mentioned Rick Stover, who's been been a great leader in that uh category. Um, even to his admission, there just wasn't that focus that should have been placed on that program and and being utilized as good as it could have been. The fact that we stood up the first ever FSA department, um, you know, we're starting off with 15 individuals. Um, the fact that we located and with your leadership, you know, over 70 positions that FSA was paying for that had nothing to do with FSA, those are types of things that we had to write the ship on. And so um I I think that's probably the the thing that stands out because that's even outside stakeholders. That's still the type, that's still the thing they talk about all the time, right? Uh is this person's time credit correct? Did they get enough credit for the program they were in? Are they going to get the maximum amount of credit that they were deserved? Are they gonna be eligible to get the halfway houses uh into into home confinement, et cetera? That's been probably the biggest move of the needle we've had. Um I'm I'm proud of that. Now don't get me wrong, we have a ways to go yet. We've got a lot of things uh that are um that we're talking about trying to improve on. We're talking about statute like you know, changing language in the statute, uh maybe giving me more authority to move people uh uh through under the rules, of course, but you know, giving me the ability to move people into halfway houses into home confinement, uh, which would be huge. If we can lure the inmate population, that takes the stress off our staff, of course, and and and it's not as expensive for the country as a whole, but I think the FSA is where I would probably be the most proud of. Um but with saying we've still got a lot of work to do.

Smith 24:51

So right now, because of the cancellation of the collective bargaining agreement, uh thanks to President Trump's leadership, th this agency now is able to move through policy transformation. And I don't think people understand how much is going on behind the scenes right now with that. Before all of these had to be negotiated and and back and forth. We've got a hundred and two policies currently in progress. Twelve you signed, I think, a week or so ago. I think there's twenty-seven on your desk to sign, and I think we do that tomorrow. Yeah. There's some policies there that have been thirty years. Thirty years twenty-eight years. I remember as we've sat down going through all the differences of the policies. Uh several of them that we heard from staff, right, that that were saying, Hey, this is holding us up, this is a problem as we've been out there. We just changed kind of the discipline program where they're able to do it very quick or moving through some of the backlog of very simple things that they've done. Somebody didn't done the work or somebody didn't do something uh a day. They're not held to answering those for a year or whatever. Several policies that that have been going on. I mean, this is transformational time, and we just got this ability, and and kudos to all the team because it's frankly, it's not just you and I rebuilding it, it's literally Bureau of Prisons team members that are involved in these policies, saying, all right, hey, this hasn't made sense for a long time. Why are we still doing it?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah, and you know, um, I've always been a huge policy and protocol type of person. Um, you know, from my early days of the state police, I was like a three or four year trooper, and uh they asked for people to be on policy committees and I volunteered. Now I was I was told by a senior guy that I admired to volunteer, but I'm glad I did because I learned so much so quickly. You've been around corrections for a long, long time. You've worked in in, you know, well with with different state agencies. You've been around the globe. Um I've been in around uh law enforcement and corrections for a long, long time, and things have changed so drastically over the last 28, 29, 30 years that when I was reading the policies and I read all 300 and some of them, it it'll put you to sleep. Some of them will trust me. But I I did exactly what you said. I'm like, well, this don't even make sense. And there and there was a number of policies that could have been merged to uh together that, you know, that were really, really simple, what we call low-hanging fruit. But um, you know, even back to my uh commissioner days in West Virginia, um, we, you know, we had not consolidated all the policies, you know, three or four years after consolidation of all three legacy agencies there. And so I was big on pushing that through. Um, policy is a living, breathing thing. If it's not working for you, um, you know, you try to build a policy that that applies that that meets the needs of what we are now. Um, and so it's a bit exciting for us to be able to do that because when you talk about changing a bureau or, you know, or transforming an agency, policy is the foundation of all that. And and you know, when you're going around the facilities and they're saying, like you say, why are we doing that? Well, I don't know, let's look at it. Let's see what, let's see if it works for us. And most of the time to this point, it hasn't. I mean, you talk about, I mean, we're we're you know, thirty or forty knocked out already uh that we're ready to sign, and we and we hope by the end of the year even more and more of that. That to me is the foundation of what we're doing. Um it's extremely critical. And like I said, if the policy don't work for you, let's uh let's let's fix it and let's make it uh let's make it make

First Step Act Focus And Policy Fixes

SPEAKER_01 28:25

sense.

Smith 28:25

You know, I I think few will appreciate until years down the road how impactful President Trump is being currently right now on our government, right? I mean, uh in the news you get, you know, you hear the the the wars and the different things and the other problems he's solving, but but he's hired a lot of leaders to get into these agencies all throughout government with with the mission of making it better. I think that few will appreciate it until years down the road, right, where where where that judgment is done on how transformational this will be. I mean, as a non-government person, I've never been in government. It has just been frankly encouraging seeing what's going on here now coming in to see what existed, which is just dysfunctional, to really putting common sense things in place. And without, frankly, somebody like him and his leadership, none of this would even exist. And this is happening in agencies all across of government right now, going through these very same things.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

And you know, I I worked for somebody very similar to him prior to coming here. Um, Senator Justice, uh Jim Justice, who uh who was the governor back in uh in West Virginia, he put me in place. He was a businessman. He wasn't a politician. He was a lot like what the president is, and and he and the president are friends. And so it was almost a natural fit for me to come over and continue to work for somebody like President Trump because they run it like a business. They give the leaders more autonomy than anybody else I've ever been around or worked for. They give you the ability to do your job. They empower you. Um, and so that's that's been very refreshing for me. I've always said, listen, I I'll come in and I'll be happy to work as hard as I can and run a bureau, run a division, whatever. But if you're gonna select me to run it, let me run it. And that's what they do. And as a leader, that is so refreshing to know that, you know, think without limitations, right? Let's let's let's work hard. Let's try to find the the best way of doing things. And really anything is on uh the the table that we can that we can work through. Now, you know, everybody will see one crisis after another, right? I mean, they say the next crisis is just around the corner, but that doesn't change what we do every day. You know, we might be forgotten about uh, you know, from one thing to another, but we still have to grind through all these things. Um, and you know, our country is it can be pretty chaotic right now, but we have strong leadership at the top, and that's what makes me feel good about it, that we will come out of all these situations better than what we were when we went into them.

Smith 30:57

So you and I have um really been working on a lot of the leaders and leadership, and you've said right off the bat, hey, this is this is how you make a difference. You know, we've been through the interviews, we've been through these uh different things. We've been holding trainings that have been unlike uh before. How important is leadership to you? Why is it so important and and how what role does that play here in the Bureau of Pris um as we move forward into this next chapter?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

When when you're when you're leading a group of individuals, I don't care whether you're coaching a team, leading a government uh agency, leading a private business, you can't be an imposter. Because if they see through you, you're done. They won't follow you if they don't believe in you. You ever watch a ball game and I was watching one last night, and I love to watch the head coaches when something critical happens or a big shot's made or or a field goal is missed, and you'll see everything around that head coach, if he's a good one, just jumping up and down, celebrating or in agony, you know, hitting the floor, whatever, and the head coach is still he don't react. He's still in the moment, he's still coaching that situation, he's calm, he's under control, and that's what I want to be. I don't want to be that leader that jumps up and down and in and screams and hollers hot and cold all the time. You have to be that steady force for everybody all the time. And it's hard, it's hard to be on, you know, all the time. And when I go home, I'm able to what they say, lip my hair down a little bit with my my wife and my children. Um, but that's what I look for in a leader. Do you have control of the situation when things are really chaotic and rough or really great? Because if you go strutting around with your chest out all the time, when things are great, people's gonna shoot them arrows at you. Now, trust me, I don't I don't care about having a bullseye on my back. I love it. Bring it on. Whatever it is, I don't care. I don't back away from nothing. I don't back away from the truth, I don't back away from tough situations. Um, I don't, I don't back away from tough questions. Um, I've been warned from several people, hey, when you get to the hill, this, that. I'm ready. Whatever they want to throw at me, I'm ready. I'm not gonna lie to them, I'm not gonna make anything up. But I'm looking for those leaders that are calm, cool, and collected. Um, and if you watch ball games, you'll see because I always focused on the head coaches. Uh the team the other night made a big shot. Guys are jumping up and down, the assistant coaches are down on one knee pumping their fist and they're sliding across the floor, and the head coach is still there in the moment. He's locked in. Because that ball still got to go out of bounds, we've got to come in. We've got to play defense for at least a couple of seconds. That's what I look for. That's what I love about good leaders.

Smith 33:48

You know, something else that has happened uh in this agency uh that has we've heard a lot uh is we've started to communicate. Nobody's ever communicated before. That's communicating internally to our people, that's going out and doing the visits and those things. Uh communicating through surveys where we're learning about them. We're we're engaged with stakeholders, we're putting out videos to everybody, staff and out general public, updating some of the things we're seeing, some of the things we're challenging. Which I think I do think it's kind of funny because I think if you added up all of our followers that we have, you might get 20 before we came in. So it's not like I tell people out there, if you ever look in my personal social media, you'll never see me holding a phone up taking some video of myself talking about something. I mean, this is literally something we've done based on the feedback of saying we need to communicate to our staff. They deserve to know these things. And outside stakeholders deserve to be able to see what we're doing. Congress, like our contraband uh stuff, the things that our staff are doing, great jobs every day. We've not done one thing to change that yet. All we've done is communicated it to highlight what they've done. Um what has communication uh, you know, what has this been to you? Because I know you and I talk many times about how uncomfortable sometimes it is, right? Even doing this, I mean exposing ourselves, uh, all of our Facebook lovers out there, all the ones that are gonna do all their great comments and the bitterness and those things. Uh what what has communication and that meant to you as you've done that?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

So you you know my extent of social media, right? And you know my genuine of I do not care about the comments uh and and and whatnot. Um You're gonna break their heart now. I mean they're gonna really be up to it. Well, if you look at my personal uh social media, which I don't have very many platforms, you're gonna be pretty bored because I don't I don't really do much on it. Um I do a lot of reading on some different uh platforms, but as far as like uh you know going down rabbit holes as they say and and posting things, I just don't I just don't do that. I think that uh our our employees uh they're starting to see the importance of the surveys that's been sent out because you see more and more participation in those as they go out because they're seeing now, hey, they're really gonna impact what we do. They mean what they're saying when they send those out. Um, you know, we've got more attention now for the Bureau than probably ever in the history of the Bureau since 1930, which can be good and bad, right? So, you know, we want that attention. We want that um uh we want those eyes on us because we're gonna be doing great things. Now, old school corrections will tell you stay out of the funny papers, good or bad, right? Well, we've kind of gone against that, okay, because we've got a lot of people that are interested in us, outside interests, high profile uh individuals that really want to help us. And so I think the communication that we have developed with the videos, with the visits, uh, et cetera, has been really impactful because you hear all the time, well, we're so disconnected from central office. We never hear from central office. I I've heard it called the puzzle palace, the ivory tower, you know, whatever you want to call it. But I think we're we're we're bridging that gap between us and the field. At least that's what I want to do. I want them to know we care about them. I want them to know that the decisions and the opinions they have is going to uh affect what we do. I mean, you can you can have real change. So, you know, having a seat at the table with DOJ, you know, having the attention of Attorney General Pam Bondi, and we have bi-weekly meetings with uh Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch, just having that kind of interaction and that kind of focus on us is really has really made a huge difference in in how you view the Bureau. Uh, like you said about the contraband, we're really not doing anything anymore. I mean, we're we're we're getting a lot of contraband, but they they were getting contraband before we got here. They were doing hard work and getting contraband before we arrived. We're just able to show it now to where people are saying, hey, look at what they're doing. Um, and I think it impacts what happens on the hill as well. Um, that's it's so important for us to tell our story. And you said there is a little bit of of danger of putting yours putting yourself out there, but as long as we're honest and genuine about things, I'm okay with that. That's what I want to do. Um, I can't tell you how many different podcasts I've done. I've done a handful, and they say, well, people are studying them and they're gonna trap you, et cetera. So this this congressman or this. I'm like, I don't know how they're gonna trap me because I don't take the cheese. I mean, it's it's it's one of those situations where I don't tell them anything that's not true or it's not genuine. If you're gonna trap me, I don't know how you're gonna try to do it. Now, I'm ready for any tough question. I'm not gonna make anything up. But those communications, I think, has shit has put a light on the Bureau that is a positive thing because now we're looking at state agencies across the country saying, man, you guys are doing great work. Well, what they didn't realize was a lot of those things were already being done. We were just, we're just showcasing it now. We're showcasing the talents of our individuals that we talked about we that we inherited. Um, we've run the bad actors out. We're showcasing that as well. So that's a big thing as well. So you want to see their good, but we're gonna show you the bad also. We're gonna pull the curtain back. Hey, listen, come in, see what you see, tell us what you think. Um, and I think the communication has been huge. Um and it'll continue as long as I'm here, and I know it will as long as you're here. And we're not we're not about patting ourselves on the back. That's not what this is about. This is to showcase the bureau. This is to showcase our people that have stood this bureau up for decades. That's what this is about.

Communication Culture And Year Two Goals

Smith 39:25

Absolutely. You know, the uh your focus from the beginning on a staff that has been, I mean, just a very difficult workforce. Again, we talked about how they voted their this is the worst place. By the way, I just found out uh just a couple of weeks ago, I've said that, man, you voted it the worst place to work. I just found out there's over 400 government agencies that they voted that in.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

I mean, that that's if you're a football coach and and and you're and you're the defensive coordinator and you're ranked 400 and or you're rate rated 398th out of uh 400, how long do you think you're gonna keep that job? You know, I mean you're not you're not stopping anybody. So what do you you know, you gotta make some improvements somewhere?

Smith 40:05

I like what you said. You say something like it's not like we inherited uh you always did not inherit the 1960s Vince Lombardi Packers, okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Or the 1970s Dallas Cowboys of Tom Landry. I mean, you know, we we inherited uh an outfit that had talent. Um I think we need to do a better job building our bench, but we had talent. They just needed those right leaders to to get them fired up, to, to, to show them that we believe in them, put them in the right position to succeed, because that's what every leader, good leader does. You take you take a person that it may be struggling in one area, but you see talent, you see a good person there, find that position for them to succeed in, and then you'll see what happens. And it's exciting when you see, it's so exciting for me as a leader when I see two or three young people develop into good leaders, uh, inspired by my leadership and inspired by your leadership. Um, it's good to have that that that young energy that, and when I mean young, you could be in this bureau for 15 years, but you're a new delete, you're a new supervisor, a new leader. I love seeing those leaders develop. I love seeing people succeed under us. I love seeing people that want my job. That's what I want. A lot of people will kind of keep things at bay. They'll keep some trade secrets in their pocket, not me, not and not you. I want you to want my job. I want you to aspire to be who I am. I want you to think like uh being at the top, and uh that's gonna develop a great successful euro in my mind.

Smith 41:30

So it's been a challenge, right? When you have no money, you've got this deficit, uh, to how to show appreciation to the staff. Now, thankfully we had the big, beautiful bill, so we were able to do some things to focus on some of our most hurting staff, some of the retention pay in certain places, uh, some of the focused in some of the struggled positions we've got. Sometimes it was area specific, uh, taking just a few dollars to be able to do that to to try to point it in the right direction to help as many people as we could. We've listened to, right? There's some things that don't cost money. So we've tried to listen to the schedule and and we've asked their opinions and gotten the the the survey results back and and and really looking to say, all right, how do we improve this agency? Why has that been so important to you in your first year?

SPEAKER_01 42:16

I think it just shows that we genuinely care about our people. I think I I think when they see us working and they see us pushing and they see us talking about things, I think they feel like at least they're paying attention, at least they're trying to do something the right way. Uh you talk about you know the the the money, the spending plan. Um, you know as well as I do, you're never going to please everybody, you know, and and and I have a uh an experience where, you know, I was uh a state police commander and I had a bunch of troopers that were fussing over overtime. You know, this guy was getting this much, that guy was getting this much, et cetera. And I and I just brought them all together. I said, guys, listen, okay? I mean, I could give each one of you all a bag of gold bars and you would bitch and complain that you had to drag it to the cruiser, okay? I'm like, guys, we can't solve everybody's problems here, but we can collectively work together to where everybody can end up at the same pot of money, but we have to do it together. We can't be divided here. So, you know, those are the types of things that, you know, the spending plan that you've that you've put together with Lanero Burns and uh and and others to to try to get some retention bonuses out there, to try to show the people that, uh, especially through the shutdown, how much we appreciated them. Um, you know, uh going forward, trying to maximize that $3 billion out of the out of the big beautiful bill, if that don't show them that we care about them, that we're trying to give them everything that we have. We can't give them anything we don't have, but everything that we have goes back into them. I mean, what more could you ask for as an employee?

Smith 43:43

As you reflect over your first year, um what do you see?

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Well, I we'd mentioned it earlier. It's a shame that the financial crisis exists for the Bureau. I'm encouraged by the amount of talent that that we inherited. Uh Um, I'm encouraged by the amount of talent that we have brought in. I think that uh we've brought some outside people in that have really made a difference because they've had a fresh perspective on things. I think that has been very, very important because they brought ideas from other areas. Um uh you you say it best when you say, I don't have to make that mistake. I've already seen that mistake made. I just use it and as an experience and move on. I love the fact that we've been able to put people in certain positions to succeed. I love the fact when I call someone and say, hey, we've selected User Ward at this facility, the pure joy and satisfaction they get out of out of out of getting that call. Um, it it it didn't it didn't you know it it fires me up a little bit. I've been glad that that we have people that really want to do what they what they need what what we need them to do to make a successful bureau. I'm I'm really impressed by the fact that we have people that'll go from one side of the country to the other for the mission. I could be honest with you, I'm not so sure I'd have been that guy at one point. But you know, here I am, you know, away from home, you know, five hours, you know, five days a week at least. But you know, we make a phone call, we need a leader, and they're on the West Coast. Well, next week they're gonna be on the East Coast because that's the mission. I'm impressed by that as well.

Smith 45:18

So going into year two, what's the hope?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

I hope that we have put out most of the bigger fires. I hope that we have set the culture, at least they understand what our mission is and what the culture is. You know, just little things like like setting up the the the diversion programs, getting people to see that there is an end inside to some of this, uh, some of these silly things that they've had to to deal with. But I'm I'm I'm hopeful that they understand now what what you and I are. We're not the new leaders anymore. I mean, we're at a point now where we we own this stuff now, right? You know, you I'm not a big blamer on the past anyway, but um we don't deflect things. And so we're now we're not the new leaders. We are the leaders. But we we've I think we've put out a lot of the a lot of the fires that we we inherited. Uh we still have the budget issue that we're dealing with. I'm so thankful for the big, beautiful bill money, the $5 billion that President Trump gave us. I'm hopeful that we can utilize that money to really make a difference for our Bureau. You know, we you talk about the $4 billion in deferred maintenance, the facilities, the way you've structured it, uh, the way it's been worked through right now. I feel very good about what we can do and to maximize that money we've been given. But the I guess the biggest thing is to see this is who we are. We've been this way since day one. We're not gonna change our mindset. We have a core set of values that we want to stick to. We understand the mission of the Bureau, but we've laid out the culture. As my grandfather would say, I I quote them all the time, get on the bus, get off the bus, or get ran over by the bus. This is what it's gonna be for the next however long we're here, however many years we're here. This is the standard we're setting. And uh it it it it always kind of shocked me when you tell people, listen, just do the right thing. And they look at you like you know, you know they don't know what you mean. So you have to drill down a little bit deeper on that. But um, doing the right thing, treating people the right way, you know, making sure that we're still advancing. Uh I mentioned the FSA earlier. We still have a lot of work to do, but it's a heck of a lot better today than it was this time last year. I can assure you that. And I think it'll be better tomorrow than it was today, and I can assure you that, because we will be working hard to get that done.

Smith 47:36

Well, I just want to tell you, it's it's been this year has been an interesting year, or the the the time that I've been with you, uh, most of it. And watching your leadership, uh, your passion, your care, the the focus, you know, the the the intentionality of making it happen. Uh it has been, just frankly, for me, refreshing to be able to serve on that. And I don't say that because I I don't have to say that uh again, this is a job as you pointed out. We could leave it anytime. Our retirement doesn't come from here.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

You know, one of my really close friends asked me, and I told you this recently, hey, are you and Josh still getting on getting along? I said, Yeah, we love each other, man. We're having a great time. We're in it. And they're like, that's so impressive because we really haven't known each other all that long, right? I mean, so about a year and a half or so. Uh and so um they were impressed that we were still in it together. I said, listen, we have the same passion, the same vision, and we have a genuine respect and love for one another, and that'll never change. I said, So, you know, yes, we are still getting along. Um uh I know that sometimes the employees treat us like we're divorced parents because they don't get the answer from me, they go to you, you know what I'm saying? But uh but we are we are uh in this together, and uh I I really I and honestly say is I wouldn't want to do it uh beside anybody else. Yeah.

Smith 48:51

Well, listen, stuff we we have uh a lot to react to every day, a lot of challenges in this agency, a lot of things that face we face every day. Uh but it it has been a pleasure getting this, you know, to this point, and it is exciting to see what your leadership is for another year. What what what as the team gets together, as we're getting some of these things figured out, what can be accomplished now that we're getting things right? And so uh hey, listen, uh you're the first one that's been on two of these.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

I feel honored.

Smith 49:18

We'll just go ahead and plan the one next year. Okay. And uh and then we'll be able to reflect just like we did today. I love it. Sounds great. Looking forward to it. Thank you,