Transparency Talks
Dive deep into the power of honesty, openness, and authenticity. The Federal Bureau of Prisons first ever podcast, Transparency Talks, will pull back the curtain on real stories, tough conversations, and the truth behind corrections. Transparency isn’t just a buzzword, it’s a way of life. Join us and discover how clarity can enhance communication and build stronger connections with the public and community partners.
Transparency Talks
S1E10 | The Conversation Behind the Change
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Note: Joshua J. Smith served as Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the time this interview was recorded.
The path from incarceration to Deputy Director was unconventional, but the real story is how leadership grounded in listening and visibility can shift the direction of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. In a unique episode of Transparency Talks, former Deputy Director Josh Smith and Director William K. Marshall III switched seats to celebrate former Deputy Director Smith’s one year anniversary at the BOP and to look at the responsibility, travel, and pressure that shape the role, and why culture, staff safety, and accountability must work together to strengthen facilities and protect the public. We dig into policy modernization, the challenge of contraband and drug risks, and how clear communication and practical reforms support employees while preparing people in custody to return home.
Roles Reversed And The Setup
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, welcome back to another episode of Transparency Talks. I'm glad I'm on this side today because this is my best side. And today's episode is going to be a little bit different. As you can see, I'm on the other side here. And honestly, it's going to be really, really enjoyable for me because I'm usually the one getting grilled, getting asked the questions, and I'm going to flip this. And the deputy director, Josh Smith, is going to be my subject today. Yes. So without further ado, let's get into it. Okay. How's that sound?
SPEAKER_00So I feel like you've been a detective for a long time. You've been a lot. This is going to be interesting.
SPEAKER_02I'm ready. I'm ready. All right. Now listen, I've been on several podcasts. I have broadcasted after talking to uh my partner last night over a hundred high school football and basketball games on the radio.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And a lot of them included my own children, so I never had anything, you know, that I couldn't talk about, right? So this feels the same way, right? Because it's um, you know, you and I have spent so much time together, uh, and people think we've known each other since kindergarten, and we really have not, right? We just met each other and just casually met each other in August of 2024 at the uh CLA ACA conference in Nashville. And little did I know at that time that you were gonna be one of the most instrumental people in my life for the rest of my life. I didn't realize that. Didn't realize that at the time. So, June 9th, wow, what a what a date, right? Seems like seems like a long time ago in a lot of ways. Um but in in in other ways it feels like we just got here. So I'm just gonna start off asking you a simple question.
Mentors And A Year Of Surprises
SPEAKER_02Okay Who has impacted you the most since you've been in this position?
SPEAKER_00I I don't know that I could clarify it to one person. I mean, I I think that there's been but there's not been a lot, let me say that. There are a handful of people, and I wouldn't want to name the names because then that would just show some things, but that work in this agency that have inspired me tremendously. You know, there are several people that I knew before uh that that that had worked in this agency, uh seem young people that work currently, uh, and and several of those I found inspiration in. But being able to get out and see so many facilities, being able to meet some of the, I'm gonna just say younger talent, or or I, you know, frankly, even some older talent that we've got here. Uh it being on the inside, I I would say that's where I found a lot of my inspiration. I wouldn't want to point out one in particular person because there are several there.
SPEAKER_02And you and I've talked about several people that has influenced you leading up to this position and even currently why we're here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I I'm the beneficiary of a lot of great leaders. Yeah. You know, I I I I don't uh you know I steal a lot from people, right, of of great ideas and thoughts and those. And you know some of the the people that have been impactful in my life that are current or former correctional leaders. I mean, they're they're these are people that I've been walking with for a long time and and and just listening to and being mentored by. So uh uh several inspirational people that have made a huge impact.
SPEAKER_02So you've now completed your first year um leading the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Let that sink in just for a moment. You are deputy director, a job one of one in the world of corrections. You're leading it from the front, you're accountable, you're available, you're one of the most brilliant people I have ever worked with and been around. And how the tables, man, have turned because I'm sure there was a point in your life that you never believed that you would be sitting where you are today, leading one of the largest bureaus in all of government, the largest in the Department of Justice, managing the biggest budget, and it's been a lot on you with your business acumen. Um what stands out the most about the time since you've been here um opposed to what you believed it was going to be before you got here?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say first, you know, every day I get to live a life that surprises me. You know, before this job, especially this job, still many times surprised. I mean, I still I sit there and go, wow, I am the deputy director of the Bureau of Prisons. But I also said, Wow, I'm a husband to to a wife for 30 years, you know, children, my family, a successful business, those things, many a days from where my life started to where it is now. I I I think I'm always going to remain very thankful and and grateful to God and and just in shock that He's allowed me to live the life that I get to live. Um I think that, you know, as as God has had me on this path of experiencing different things and different people, this has been one that, you know, you you never know what you're looking at before you get into one of these situations. I've traveled the country, traveled the world, going into different prisons, and you experience different things. And now being on the inside, seeing this agency that obviously three decades ago I was in, uh, have now worked in it uh as a volunteer and being around many of the people that work in it and and having those relationships. But then now being on the inside, I think it's just been uh a tremendous experience of understanding, it just gives me even more acknowledgement of the important role that this agency plays. I mean, it played an important role in my own personal life. Uh it plays a role in about 36,000 staff members' lives and their families are touched off from this agency. Uh 156,000 inmates and their families, and then frankly, our neighborhoods. I mean, you and I go home, and when we do, really how we're able to perform in these roles and how the Bureau of Prison is able to operate creates the public safety that we either enjoy or we don't.
SPEAKER_02Essentially from coast to coast. From coast to coast. North, south, east, and west.
SPEAKER_00And so I think, you know, if anything, what I would say is is it's it's helped me gain even a larger appreciation for the role that Corrections plays, the role that this agency plays, and the people that that work here every day do it. And um and so I I think it's an awesome responsibility. It's a uh it's an honor to be able to do it. And and and and I love being able to to for you and I to be in positions where, and frankly, with a with a president that allows us to be able to really improve it, not just maintain it, not just not just come in and manage the chaos or the stuff of each day, but actually do something about it and really be able to make it better.
SPEAKER_02So you made a good point there, and and one thing that I've enjoyed about this job is a continuation of what I had done my previous chapter in my life, being in law enforcement, et cetera, now being in corrections nine years, that every day is different. Like every day presents a different challenge, a different experience. I've been journaling, I'm a little bit behind now, but I'm still journaling. As you're leaving out last night, I told you about an incident that just happened, and we look at each other like, well, that's a new one, right? Um so I I really appreciate the different things that occur each day. Some of them are head scratchers, of course, most of them maybe are head scratchers. Um but you opened up an area which I wanted to touch on a little bit later, but I'm gonna do it right now since you opened up on it.
Family Sacrifice And A Sense Of Calling
SPEAKER_02So how has this position and this job career impacted Tracy, your wife?
SPEAKER_00You know, when I took this job, I knew that it would there would be a sacrifice for our family, right? Her and I talked about it. We we talked about it for a few months. And uh, you know, I'm fine with taking the hits, you know, that this is one of those jobs you know as you sign up for uh that that it's rough. I I'm sure I had people that didn't like me before, but you never, you know, I you wouldn't anticipate, you know, our lovely Facebook uh, you know, keyboard warriors or the people out there, you know, the the disgruntled. Um and for me, I can able to shake those things off. But you know, Tracy, and and and frankly, my family, you know, they do without me a lot. You don't visit as many facilities or you know, cover the country. This isn't a 40-hour a week job for me. And so, you know, the sacrifice for them has been something, you know, uh how it's impacted my wife, I think, for one, she's been very proud. Uh and and that's uh, you know, and in fact, I got a just a beautiful text from her yesterday, just a random, you know, uh, I hadn't been home in two weeks. Yeah. And so those texts matter. You know, those things mean something. And um and so I I think it's made her proud. I think, you know, this is definitely a different life than we were living. I mean, I had sold my company. Uh, we were traveling around doing working in prisons, but at the will that we wanted to, and uh, and also enjoying a whole totally different life. Um and and so, but man, she's been so supportive. She's been um, I mean, all my family have just been, you know, just tremendously supportive. It it makes us em enjoy our quality time better when we get home. We don't take for granted, you know, hey, we're all around each other all the time. And uh, and that that's been the same for us. So uh, but no, I mean she she's just been great. And you know, there's days people ask me, you know, and and you've even asked, yeah. Why are you still doing this? How long are you gonna do it? What's you know, everybody knows I don't have to do it. I'm probably one of the few I'm not looking for that next thing. Right. I'm not I'm not trying to go on to something else. Um I I came here because I believe I was called here, I believe this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And um and and as long as I've got the support of you and and the administration and uh and feel like we can really get things done, then I'm here and and I'm thankful to have my family uh be able to support me the way that they do.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, uh it and I appreciate that answer because that's very, very real, very raw answer. Um the hours and hours that you and I spent on Zoom calls together and just telephone calls prior to us even getting here. Um and the support that we received from our spouses, Jody and Tracy. Um I wouldn't even have taken the first meeting in in regards to the job if I didn't think that my family was behind me. And uh, you know, you're younger than I am, but you have grandchildren. I don't have grandchildren. That's kind of a whole nother layer of things that they want to see Papa, right? They want to they want to be part of pop-pops, they want to see pop-pops, they want to see him, they wanna they want to be part of his life. I know how instrumental my grandparents were to me um um growing up. So um so we talk about we were told, and and we believe in this wholeheartedly, think without restrictions. Even though we know they exist, um you're new to government, I'm not. So sometimes I'm in areas where I'm like, you know what, I I think this is the right thing to do, but that you know, that that government hat is is sitting around there somewhere, right? Sure,
Fixing Government Culture With Teams
SPEAKER_02sure. So if there's one rule or one process that you could change, what would that be?
SPEAKER_00You know, I I think that the the thing that I I I don't like, let me just say, about the federal government side as being somebody who's been a business leader, um, you know, employer. I really feel like the people in government are missing out on something really special that work in government. Let me explain. So in a to be a business leader, you have to you have to be good at a few things. For one, you have to be good financially. You have to understand finance, you have to understand money.
SPEAKER_02Which, by the way, you're fantastic.
SPEAKER_00Well, I appreciate it. And that's, I mean, you know, I had to get that way. I didn't start that way. I don't have a degree in economics or anything, but I had to get that way. You you you you have to to be able to be successful in business. In business, you also understand the importance of getting the right people in the right positions, okay? Because when you get that right, man, it's really good for everybody, for the entire ecosystem. And uh and and then you you you have to be able to build a team. So you have to have a good culture, or you you can have the greatest product, the greatest business, but if you have a bad culture, and the people on the front lines of your business don't appreciate or understand the whole mission of that business, then you'll fail. And and being here, I've been able to see some great talented people that I call, I call it untapped talent or unempowered talent that that are now in government. They're doing their years, you know, they they sometimes I believe they count their retirement date like inmates are counting their release date. I mean, they they I think they know it better than inmates do sometimes.
SPEAKER_02I would rather chew my right arm off is to come out here and just punch a clock. Yeah. No thanks.
SPEAKER_00And so like I feel like that that in government, in this agency, uh they've been missing out on the right people being put in the right positions and and being treated that right way, or being courage, or working together as a team. And so I think that's probably if there's one thing I'm trying to do more of or bring, is that joy of that because see, I get to in business, I get to walk in and people are high-fiving each other, they're smiling, they're I mean, like we're we're going all in the same direction on a mission. And you come here and it's more just writing on a page, it's the conflict, it's it's I don't know, it's just it's kind of uh doing time almost. And so I think as you and I have been able to highlight some of the leaders that that you know exhibit those types of attributes or skills, and as we've put in the you know, these leaders, these wardens, these captains, these RDs, these uh associate wardens, all the way down lieutenants, even we're trying to work on. I I don't know. I just I think what I would hope for everybody here, regardless how long I'm here or not, is you you get to experience what it's like to work on a team and in an environment that's healthy. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's probably my biggest sense. That's kind of one of my toughest challenges of working here is man, it's if that ever did exist, it's it's been a long time.
SPEAKER_02So So the so the majority of government, and the and from my experience, the word is survival. Right? Because I mean you'll you'll make someone especially in the state police and different things, you'll make someone mad and then five years later he gets you. And and that's been the the mindset here. You feel it, yeah. Yeah, you feel it. Um you and I are just crazy enough to not be afraid of anybody, right? We're gonna make the decision that's right for not us, has nothing to do with us, that's that we believe is gonna be right for the Bureau years to come, to where we can break down those barriers and say we have to work together, like you said. So from day one, I mean you've been all in, both feet, boots on the ground, um, you've made it a point to be visible in the field, you have visited more than 60 facilities, um, throw in my 30, whatever, almost a hundred facilities in not even quite just a year, right? Um when you're on those visits, what have you consistently heard uh from the staff because you I can't tell you how many times you've told me you've heard, hey, listen, I wasn't in on you. Okay. I didn't I I was not happy about it. Okay. And what's what's strange is is that you're my deputy, you're you're my guy. I made the decision. Nobody comes to me and says, Why in the world did you chop pick Josh Smith? They come at you. So how has it shaped you and your priorities when you go into those facilities and you're in a bunch of them? Weak in all in. So how has that shaped you?
SPEAKER_00I think, you know, as I've been out, I I knew that I was gonna be um I I've already dealt with this in other states, right? Because I've worked in other states, you see people going, wait a minute, we can't, you know, who is this guy? He's he used to be in prison, we can't, you know, do that. And I knew it'd be a shock to the system. I, you know, I I'll tell you what I've really appreciated. I think it was I got swore in on Monday. It was at my first institution on Friday. I think I left Friday night at eight, uh, drove several hours and was at a USP, went in on Saturday morning at 7:30, wanted to catch third shift coming out. And uh after the very first prison, there was a guy that followed me out to the car, one of one of the leaders. And uh and he said, Boss, I'm just gonna tell you. I wanna admit, I I didn't like you, I didn't like the idea of any of this, and I'll be honest, I've talked pretty bad about you. It's been rumored you were gonna be here, and and he said And I can respect that when someone comes through. I respect it a lot. He said, I was wrong. Now that was the fifth day. Uh I wish I had a quarter for every time I've heard it. And I really appreciate because you'd still be in the hole, by the way. Yeah. I I appreciate it because and I tell people when I'm meeting with staff, I've done 30 staff recalls. I don't know who has ever done I've done a lot of listening, right? I I pay and I let them ask me, say whatever, you know, and and and I've really appreciated the lines at the end, you know, after I do where where many of them come up and go, you know what? I didn't like you. Or and seeing this on social media or this, but I really appreciate you working hard for us. I I really do feel like you're trying to do something. And so I kind of just let the noise go. You and I are focused, and and I knew I had to do that when I took this job. So I it people can, you know, I'm sure we'll get great comments on Facebook underneath here of all the little warriors. But but we're we've got a job due. We're here to really improve the agency. And even for those that that wouldn't understand it, right? Even those that would still struggle and have a problem with me, I'm still gonna work hard for them too. Because I I don't blame them. I understand it. I I get it. Uh so uh it's it's different, but I really do think that these these you and I's perspective together can really help this agency in a big way. I think it's already starting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it's it's really surprising, uh, especially back home where people know me more and they really only know me as, you know, Commander Marshall, West Virginia State Police, whatever. And uh and when they learn or hear that that I selected or that we were in this together, um, a formerly incarcerated individual, it raises their eyebrows like, well, Bill Marshall, you law and order, you've been putting people in prison and jail your entire more than half your life. Um, but once they understand a perspective, and I'll be honest with you, your maturity is is very, very important to me because you come into things with a clear head and and a full heart, and that has really helped me. Um I evaluate myself all the time going forward being the leader that everyone here expects me to be, and so that was important for you to come in with that kind of a mindset. Um the recalls that you've done, and you mentioned staff, but the recalls you've done with the inmates to me has been even more impactful, and I'll tell you why. You are making an impact with the inmates in order to impact the staff, to s have them see things in another way, to have them become better citizens, the inmates, of their communities, which in return makes things better for the staff. So touch on that just
Inmate Accountability And Staff Safety
SPEAKER_02a little bit.
SPEAKER_00You know, I I really enjoy when staff are able to hear be talked to the inmates. Uh, because I think if you talk to the inmates, they would not say I'm pro-inmate. Uh I think many a times they'd say, well, wait a minute. I I think w what I look at is what is our real goal? Let's let's drop the this side, that side. What is our real goal? Our real goal is for our staff to be safe, for them to be able to go home. They come in, do their job, and be able to go home. Right? That that's that's that that's the goal for them, right? To to be able to be safe. Um, I want to tell you, for me, when I look at the overarching goal, for me it's public safety. You know, you talk about my grandkids. Yeah. Um, for me, it's our communities. And so whenever I go in and talk with the inmates, um I challenge them pretty hard. In fact, I've taken in other formerly incarcerated people. I've I've done this now for For years, where I talk to them about being a father or a mother. I talk to them about being a community member. And uh and and I let them know that you know we're ready to invest in them. We're ready to be able to help them be uh who they need to be out in the community. But for those that are not there yet, those that are the hard heads, those are the ones that that are doing wrong, I'm coming after you harder than anybody. You know, I mean I I've sat at USPs around the most dangerous people that lead a lot of people. And and I guarantee we've got a lot of leaders here that wouldn't ever sit in front of them and say, I'm coming after the drugs in the prisons. Why? Well, because these are bad people that have gangs and things out on the streets. Me, I'll tell them I'm coming after them. And I'll tell them it's because I'm tired of our staff having to notify their families and their children that now they're no longer with us because of another overdose. Um I let them know I'm coming after the contraband. And and and I tell them I'm pretty good at it. Uh and so, you know, just as we've done these operations, just as we've done those other things, um if there's no discipline, if we don't have an environment that that takes these uh inmates in our custody and teaches them with accountability, strong accountability, but at the same time, uh the same way investment, education, those things, then all we're gonna do is turn out a worse product. We're gonna create a dangerous place for all of our people to work, and then we're gonna create a dangerous community out in in uh in our neighborhoods. People ask me, you know, are you pro-inmate, pro-staff? I said, you know what I am? I'm I'm pro-my family. I'm pro-public safety. And you'll never find one person. I I I told somebody out in uh we were doing a recall with some of the inmates, and the guy was saying, uh, hey, I'm supposed to get my first step back time and and and this and this, and and uh uh, but they they took a year and I said, What'd they take it for? He said, Well, had a dirty, uh, uh dirty urine and this, and but they, you know, they took the year and I looked at him in front of all the staff, in front of all the inmates, and I said, I don't support you being out in our community. I looked at this man in front of everybody, I said, if you can't make it in here, you think you're gonna be able to make it clean out there? Structured environment. So get right, get clean. We'll get you home to your family, but you better get right. You know, it it happens fast out there. But the staff that get to hear that, they don't hear some pro-inmate. They understand I'm pro this system, I'm pro-public safety and making a difference uh uh in in the lives of everybody, period.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, you bring you bring up the safety for the staff and whatnot not so long ago. You know, we had uh National Corrections Week, um we had um you know National Law Enforcement Week, uh Memorial Week. Um we celebrated uh the life and career of Mark Fisher. Um his family was able to come in and and spend some time with us, which I know was extremely impactful for you. Um and and you know, one last thing for the recalls on the inmates, you've helped me a lot to understand the mindset. Uh, because once I would deposit someone in, I'd be pretty much done with them until court uh the court hearings or proceedings came back around. So you've helped me uh realize that individuals with life sentences you think, well, what have they got to lose? You've taught me they've got a lot to lose. A lot to lose. And so that's an extremely valuable uh tool and and and bit of information that you've given me that's helped me tremendously, I'll be quite honest with you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, you look, I I I talk to people that are doing life that have committed heinous crimes, right? And and this is where society they don't know, they just say, hey, they see at court, they see them arrested, they see him go to prison for bad things, and and uh they're like, that's done. Yeah. Well, it's our correctional staff that have to deal with them every single day, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And and society doesn't understand that. This is why I don't think I mean they they just really don't give corrections the the credit that it's due or the appreciation, frankly, that it's due. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02It's the most difficult job in all of government, in my opinion.
unknownTrevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_00And yet nobody knows about it. All they see is on the movies and and those things, right? Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02We play in those empty stadiums, right?
SPEAKER_00I love how you say that. And so um the the thing is, is that you know, but but I understand for them, you know, I look and say, all right, how do we create it a safe environment, right? See, others go, oh man, you can lock them up forever, just lock them in a hole. Well, that's that's not how it works. I mean, people have to be taken to medical, they have to be taken to uh other things, right?
SPEAKER_02So in the past, that's how it's worked, and you've seen how bad it turned out.
SPEAKER_00It's very dangerous. Very dangerous. And so how do we manage that? And and and listen, there's people I know that that should never walk this uh uh society again. But you know what I'd like to use some of those for? How can they, how can we utilize them to share their stories with the younger ones that are coming in that are gonna have that chance back out in society? Uh and and I've seen, look, you only see the worst of the worst, and that that's that's generally what we see on TV. And and there's some, I mean, there's some that they they're in a cage, they'll never see the light of day again much, and and and it goes that way. But that's not the bulk. 97% of the people that we have in our in our system are gonna walk our communities again today, uh another day. And so again, utilizing everybody in prison to be able to accomplish this this goal. And I'm willing to use every piece there is to be able to create a safe environment for our staff. That's a number one. You you can't have environments, you can't just treat people certain ways and you go, okay, great, we win, but then it hurts our staff, right? It's like when when I see different states or different things going, oh, none of them need air conditioning. Okay, well, uh forget that, but do the staff. Right. I mean, are staff expected to go in and sweat all that to end with all these men that are upset and dangerous and all that stuff? So I just don't think there's a lot of thought of the the people that have to work in these environments and the safety of creation.
SPEAKER_02And I think I think you're right. I I I believe that the majority of uh uh the public think that our staff are sitting in air conditioning while they're out there suffering, uh, that we're just essentially warehousing inmates. And as we both know, that's not the way it is, and that's not the way that it should be. Um you know, you talk about the shot callers, the the the the worst of the worst. I don't think you had to be a player to be a great coach, but it sure does help. And when you're in there as a lifer and you can coach those guys that are gonna be ac back out into the society and say, Hey, let me teach you a lesson here that I had to learn the hard way. And they have a lot of information, a lot of valuable information, uh, talent, intelligence, etc. So that's been a complete turnaround for me as as well.
Modernizing Policy With Common Sense
SPEAKER_02Um so you said you don't have a degree in economics. I would argue that you have a master's degree in common sense, okay. Um you have a a background in business, building uh you know, building corporations. Um you know, it's a it's a unique time having you here with this agency and we operate, as you know, on a massive scale. And we throw numbers around 8 billion, 10 billion, whatever, like it's nothing, right? And so with your background, you know, we had policies that that we're up to over 80 now that we've uh redone or or uh created. Um policies that need to be put in place so you could do things financially and whatnot that we were able to do to have to to make us successful. Um can you just talk about the the way that we've modernized our policies uh and in ways that you've been able to with your background influence the priorities of this bureau?
SPEAKER_00You know, I'll tell you a perfect example case in point was yesterday. Uh you know, people think, you know, you have some that are out there screaming, oh, they're changing policy and and uh you know, like like it like it's some nefarious thing. You know how we've been doing it. Others don't know, but we've been using the very people inside of this agency to just ask, hey, what makes sense, what doesn't? What have you been working with the last umpteen years that you wish you could be able to change? What what uh didn't we we changed one that had telegraph still on there, right?
SPEAKER_02That it was still it was telegraph and or carrier pigeon. Yes.
SPEAKER_00It's like some of these are so old and so dated. So yesterday uh the the facilities folks came up. Leadership was uh meeting here, and they just said, Hey, can we come by and just say hi? So I always love meeting with them and and they thanked me saying, Hey, you really helped us on this policy. Uh, as you know, the one you signed, it took it from a whole lot of pages down to nothing. Well, I didn't really do anything. What I did was listen to them. They went to work on it. I forgot how many pages we condensed down to something very simple. But and and the guy that commented on it was a field person that just started up here talking about how it's been ridiculous having to work under these different confines and how much they appreciated us by by really allowing that policy to be redone.
SPEAKER_02It was over a hundred pages and we scaled it down to nine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so I I would just say again, I take great joy in being able to listen to what people are saying, what people are doing, like the discipline one that we changed. Uh that that frankly, I think it was my second week out, and the staff member said, Hey, look, uh, I cussed another staff member out. I should have done it, but I did it a year and a half ago. Can you just get me, you know, the punishment and move on? It's holding me back from promotion. This is a frontline staff member. This was not a leader, this was not a manager.
SPEAKER_02They and they don't have a soundproof office that I have that I can give her and cuss to nobody and get it out of my system.
SPEAKER_00And so I was like, hey, great. You know, we're gonna come back, we're gonna fix this. And then then there's the union and all this, and it was, and okay, we agree. I'm like, this is one of the members, right? So we were able to fix that. And and and so you just see, again, these common sense things. So we're not looking at like we don't have some nefarious, some agenda of doing stuff. We're listening to the people that are actually doing the jobs. What a noble concept, right? This is how I was able to be successful in business. Do you think I know how to all the equipment to operate in the businesses that I do? No. But I know how to listen to the people on the front line doing it. You know, you think we've received over 2,000 emails to that email inbox. Tremendous amounts of information on the surveys. And and now books I've written and you've and you've been able to fill out notes of these staff recalls that we're doing and out. And so what I've said to many of the people in this agency, what what type of agency do you want to create? We're here for a season. We don't have all the answers. So what how can we be able to make your job be better? How do we make this agency function uh better? And uh, you know, I I just I'm excited for the people in this agency to be able to do and make these changes that they've wanted to make for a long time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think that for the first time and maybe I'm not gonna say ever, but for the first time in a long time, I think the ADs understand how important their roles are because they are now empowered. We genuinely ask them questions that we want answers in return, good, honest answers. Um and so putting the pressure on them, empowering them to do their jobs has been a great turnaround for them because you can see the energy from last year at this time. Oh man, totally this year, totally different. The energy, the the genuine care and love for one another that we want each other to be successful. I challenged a couple of leaders, you're fussing at HR all the time, you're fussing about HR, let me correct that. Fuss to HR so HR can be successful and you can be successful and quit fussing about it about them to everybody else but who matters. Yeah, and so it's made a huge, a huge difference. So you you know, you'd build a life outside of of this um arena, um, even though you were in you know corrections, you did a lot of work with your foundation, um, you've done tremendous things to impact people's lives before you even got here. Um, you know, there's a lot of pressure on this job, you know, um long hours. We mentioned a personal sacrifice.
Why Take The Job And Why Together
SPEAKER_02Number one of the two-part question, why did you take this job? And the second part of that question is, why was I the one that you chose to partner with?
SPEAKER_00Well, first, I mean, why did I take the job? You know, I mean, I I said no in the beginning. I said, uh uh I I know former leaders here, I know the people have been involved, I knew, I mean, there's no bad news coming. It's only bad news coming. You really don't, I mean, others have had ideas of grandeur of changing it and and haven't been successful. And and and so uh that's why I thought I I don't want to be a part of that, right? You know, I could watch the Facebook as well and know whoever's on there is just gonna be bitter and upset, and you just got you've got a workforce that's that's that's hurt, that's damaged, um, you got you know all the challenges that we've inherited. And um, you know, but but I sat there and and and I saw the administration's I mean seriousness about changing things. And there was no, I mean, it it people I think in the in the you know, when you're watching news, just regular society, really don't understand how big of an impact is being made on federal government right now for the good. They just they don't. But then I said, okay, uh when in your life, um, I mean, I've I've obviously got financial resources, I've been successful in business, those things, uh, but we're all gonna die one day. And and we're gonna be wanting to know what our life meant at the end of that. And so I've really shifted my life to say what impact can be made. So, you know, what if? I mean, I've got nothing to lose, right? I mean, the agency's already voted the worst place to work, it's already in really uh bad shape, it's all those things. But what if we could change it? And what what if we could improve it? What if the administration was really serious and ready to do something? What if they were going to support it? Uh and so I think that that's when I sat there and said, this affects a lot of lives. I mean, a lot of lives of the staff, again, their families, what people are going home to and how they they interact, inmates, their families, and then our communities. And I thought, who would I be not, you know, it was an honor to be asked. I mean, it was a tremendous honor to even be uh in the conversation. And so that's why I said, all right, you know what? I'm gonna roll up my sleeves. I've never like you've been a you were a state trooper for 25 years, okay? Um a lot of people that that I get to work with here now at the agency served in the military. For me, I didn't do any of that. Okay. I was a kid on the streets, got in trouble really young. I couldn't, I I couldn't even been able to do any of that if I if if I wanted to. And and frankly, I just I didn't. So I thought, wow, maybe this is my way to be able to serve my country, to be able to serve in a way that I can make a difference and impact. I I think, you know, when it goes to you, um, well, let me just tell you the reasons why, if there's any success, I believe why we've been able to have this first year. Because you because you're you're gonna be a part of that. First, here's what I didn't anticipate. When they asked me, hey, what do you think you could get done here in the interviews? I said, not much. I think that surprised them because I'm a business person, hard charging, and and and and feel like I can be pretty successful in different things. And I just said, it's really set up to fail. Nobody supports it, nobody cares about it, Congress doesn't understand what it does, DOJ unsupport it. I mean, it's just it's just uh that's what it is. And and and so, but here's what I didn't anticipate. First, I didn't anticipate President Trump. I did not anticipate the support and influence that we would have out of the White House for the Bureau of Prisons. I mean, for the first time ever, I mean, we've been able to see articles come out, we've been able to see support. I mean, they they have been walking with us. It has been tremendous. The support.
SPEAKER_02And that's all we've known since you never. It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we we we we don't know any different. So that, and then I would say the standard he sets, right? The standard is excellence. I mean, if you've watched any of his shows, he don't mind firing you, right? His standard is excellence. So uh being able, when you have that standard, that means you're empowered to go make it great and held accountable if you don't. And so that's an environment that I'm used to working in as a business person. I know it's very uncomfortable for a lot of government workers, but for me, that's that's where I'm I'm comfortable. Second thing I didn't anticipate is the support from the Department of Justice. I've been able to talk to former leaders before. I mean, they don't even interact with the Attorney General or the Department of Justice much. It's it's they're kind of kept at bay. I mean, you and I live there. I mean, these people uh from our former attorney general, our new acting attorney general, who is who we've been reporting to this entire time, our Deputy Attorney General. I mean, the support that they've given us, and I mean, just even yesterday in a meeting. How can we help you?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00That I didn't anticipate because that's not what people have been able to have before. And then finally, the part I didn't anticipate is the partnership of you and I. The the the the partnership that you and I have had to be able to talk, to be able to challenge, to be able to come up with ideas, to strategize, uh, and then to be able to go out and and and and and attack these things, that was not something I could anticipate in the beginning. And so, you know, you take those three things, that's something, if I'm just really honest, I I don't believe the former leaders of this agency, in fairness to them, have been able to enjoy. Yet you and I, I mean, I think there's a lot of jealous people out there going, gosh, I could have improved this agency a lot more too, if we would have had those things. So I think that's gonna be any success we're able to have, it's gonna be makeup of that. And and and then being able to for for the first time really empower this agency to to be what it can be and and what it should be.
SPEAKER_02I can't tell you how many times someone in this office you know will get invited to something, they'll say, I've never had anybody out of here ever invited to something like that.
SPEAKER_00How many times have we heard? Yeah I've never met somebody on the VLP side.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've had I mean we've had uh influential White House people here in our in our building to have meetings in regards to us to help us.
SPEAKER_00I think that's and the people in the building are going, That's never happened before. I mean, how many times have we heard that? Never happened. That's never happened before. These people have never been here, that's never happened before. And so uh it it's an exciting time, I think, for this agency.
SPEAKER_02And and one of the things that you and I have talked about if some of you all listeners or those that are viewing this would hear some of the conversations you and I would have, they would say, I'm not sure they like each other, all right? However, you're one of the few people in my life that can challenge me and not piss me off at the same time, right? My wife, my kids, etc. My mom, dad, etc. You and I can have very, very difficult conversations, which forces me to evaluate myself in ways that I'm not sure I had in my career. And those are the types of conversations that I most value. Um a lot of times it's when I'm on the road when nobody can bother me, and you and I are on Bluetooth, right? Almost the whole trip, right? Um but that is something I've really appreciated about you um lifting me up as a leader, making sure that it's not about us, it's about the bureau, right? And and so I have really appreciated that from you um as the deputy because it makes my job in life so much better.
SPEAKER_00And see, can I just say real quick that this is where I feel like government gets robbed from this because in in business you you have leaders, you if you sit around the executive table, you have to be able to challenge. You have to be able to stand up to each other, you have to be able to say, hey, it's not common, isn't it? It's not. And so being able to see like our ADs, right? I mean, a year ago, you wouldn't even speak. I mean, they they it's very siloed, everything very hard. And then look at our last retreat that we had, you know, all week they were up here and look at the difference at the end of that. And so what we've said is we've got to be able to challenge each other, and that's what I appreciate about you is I know that's been a challenge on the government side, right? Whereas I'm sitting there going, challenge me, like hit me. I mean, uh it doesn't offend me. We're just because the goal is the agency. The goal is the success of the organization. It's not this isn't personal. How do we get to the right decision for this agency?
SPEAKER_02And you know, we're a little bit weird in that way because I I know it's hard for some to believe that are subordinates to us. I don't get offended by an honest conversation. I don't get offended by someone telling me, hey, I think you got this one wrong. Um I've never been I've never been the kind of person to to take that personally. Um I genuinely don't care what social media has to say, except for whatever our people have have placed on air, which they're doing a great job with. Uh and I can say that with great confidence because I don't care. I can I can confirm to everybody out there you can I don't care, and because uh that's that's a world that I don't I don't want to live in. Yeah. And so um you know, and we talked about culture, safety challenges. The USP uh warden training that we had at the Mid-Atlantic office was extremely impactful.
Changing USP Culture By Listening
SPEAKER_02Um most of them had said they weren't had never been in the same room together. To have outside stakeholders involved to hear and listen and share in those uh conversations and having that opportunity from all of that work that you've put in inside our our our our prisons, our USPs, what have you learned most from that work?
SPEAKER_00I think what I've learned is that this agency and and and especially the USPs have been stuck in a way of doing things a particular way for a long time. Okay. And I I want to say just kudos to to our staff. You know, the the last place I was at, um not the last place, but one of the last places on the USP side down at Coleman. You know, so I just said, hey, I want every influential staff member in a room. I don't care if they're if other people listen to them, not a self-described leader, right? But like if they're an influential staff, you know who they're listening to, people are listening to, I want them in a room. And people looked at me and it's like, what? Do you know this is that? And I said, I don't care. They're important, right? That this this matters. And then when I got them all in that room, I removed local leadership, and then I looked at all the people in the room and I said, I want you to look around who's missing. I said, I want people that'll be honest, that'll be candid, that'll talk to me, that'll say whatever, and and and and they looked around each other and they all kind of smiled, going, You got the right ones. And so then we had a really good open conversation, and I got to hear from them some of the challenges that they even had amongst why is it this way and and this way. Uh, I told them, I I can't tell somebody how to do their job. I I haven't done their job. I don't try to go do the job. But what I can do is listen to them. And so after listening to them, we all worked together and came up with a strategy that is now working at Coleman at a very uh high security, very dangerous. I mean, they call it the beast of the east for a reason. And and so, but all I've done is just listen, putting things in place, having conversations. It's the staff that are making that thing happen every single day down there. And so I I think that uh what I enjoy doing is like dislodging the the thinking that it has to be this way. And they're used to people just doing the status quo. They're used to your typical leadership, you know, not talking to them at all, for one. Right. I I can tell that people haven't been listening to in this agency in a long time.
SPEAKER_02That's been the bus biggest disconnect that we've been, you know, we've been told every time we go, not sometimes every time, that they don't hear from central office, they don't get callbacks, emails back. So that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00Which is a shame. I mean that that's a that's a that's again as a business leader.
SPEAKER_02You've got to be here first of all.
SPEAKER_00As a business leader, you've failed day one if you don't listen to your people. So but but I you know, I think that watching you're we're gonna see some of these USPs change. You're gonna see some things happening there. And I'm sure people are gonna listen to this. Oh, uh, you know, your your old heads, this can't do nothing. Well, that's because they're stuck where it's at. And so uh the the the kudos to our staff that are out there because that's really who's making these things happen. I'm just in the middle going out, asking the questions, moving, you know, away the the the the this part or this restriction or this to allow them to be able to operate the way that they need to.
SPEAKER_02And you know, we talk about the the communication and one of the things that I was concerned about was the video messages that we send out. Uh were they were was the the staff going to be tired of seeing us? Um did did they think we were putting ourselves on the platform? Um you know all of that has been no, they're not tired of seeing us. They appreciate the con you know the the communication. They're just I think happy to be communicated to and we and we are genuine in our in our approach, so they know it's not about us. Um but what they have done is they have spurned conversation. I've already received two or three emails about about the way we're doing business and and and our you know our uh procurement request, et cetera, which is exactly what they're designed to do. Now they've not all been positive, but at least they're talking and thinking about it, right? And so to put those out there, which I wasn't sure was the best idea, you kept pushing it. I believe in it because it was the quickest way to get messages to the field rather than an email or uh, you know, a memo. The video allows them to see us and judge our body language as to how sincere we are in regards to in regards to taking on those those types of I mean it's not we don't have all the time in the world. Uh the team does a great job, you know, getting us in here quick, saying our message, two or three takes and getting out of here. They've do they've done a great job with all the edits and whatnot. So that's something that I've appreciated that that you've brought to the table.
SPEAKER_00Communication's a big deal. It's what I've heard from the very beginning. And uh, you know, if you look at my own personal life, I don't have a podcast. I don't care about this stuff. I mean, I have enough money. If I wanted to create a podcast, I could have created before here. Uh you'll never look at my own personal social media and see me standing in front of camera, hey guys, I just want to, I'm not that guy. Uh and and don't plan on being it after I'm done with this job. But I just think that the people deserve to be communicated to, not through regional directors and then wardens. I think people need to in this agency get to understand who we are, they get to understand what we're working on, that we care about them, and that we're listening. And so it's made a lot of leaders upset that we're doing these open email boxes. That's nobody's used to that. Nobody's used to that being able to get directly to us. Uh and so we're I mean, we're listening.
SPEAKER_02The other night I was um jogging around the Capitol, and um to to your point, there was three different individuals in three different locations with the Capitol in the background with their own little live from the Capitol Hill. Yeah um and I'm not sure that any of these individuals could chew gum and walk at the same time. Okay, and so it's like me, me, me, look what I'm doing, look what I'm doing, look what I'm doing. And I really truly don't think that we that's that's us, that's not what we've done. And so um I think it's brought a lot of value to uh to our messaging and what we're how we're trying to communicate. Um what did you believe about this job before you took it that has now changed your mind?
Real Reform And The Legacy Question
SPEAKER_00You know, I I think that um again, I think just the change, right, that that that it can actually be improved and changed. Most you got states and then you've got uh this federal system. And I've learned in many of the states you've got leaders that don't know, like governors that don't know or understand corrections and they don't want to, right? Just keep it quiet, keep it out of the funny papers. I again I think that's probably the biggest thing for me is is that that we could actually come in and create real change. Uh I I I make the jokes around to some of our leaders, and even when I'm doing some of the staff recalls, hey, don't worry. Uh when we're done here, it probably go back to your typical leadership and and and and it won't be much change and you won't see them and you won't have to talk to them. So why don't you partner with us right now? Let's all work together and really create this agency what it should be. And I make that joke, but I I think I'm probably serious. May maybe we've broken the mold enough where other leaders can do it, but uh you're not often gonna have a president that that cares about it. You're not often gonna have a governor that understands and cares about it enough to be able to choose leaders that will really be able to do something, not just maintain it. Most people just want corrections maintained. Right. We've been in bad shape enough long enough at the Bureau of Prisons that that it's time for some improvements. It's really some some time to take a hard look at at how we do business and and and how we make it a place where people can enjoy working, people can be proud of working, and that does put out a good product. So I think that's just the biggest thing is that uh now I get to tell other people in corrections that have told us, you know, even before this job, don't take that job, it's not gonna change. It's just gonna be bad. Bad news is gonna hit you and you're gonna be out the door. Bad news is the business every day of this job. But in the midst of all that, we're not just reacting to those things. We're actually actually proactively making a difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I and I I couldn't agree with that more. And and when you talk about real change, um, I know you've had Justin Thornton on here a number of weeks back. Um the real change in the way facilities have been done and and the improvements and how rapidly that's that's occurred. Touch on that real quick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, look, I again all I did was I took, I pulled Justin in, I listened. We we've got real problems within our facilities, okay? And uh and the contracting and federal government, all those things, all the challenges, this quagmire um of stuff. And and we just sat and had a common sense conversation. What should this look like? And and then now we've streamlined stuff. Their team of facilities in this agency is well, they've been doing a lot with nothing, and then you get blamed for it of why things are falling apart. Now, I mean, they're again just empowering them. They're doing some amazing work. And and and people can start expecting that's going to come to other divisions inside of this agency. We'll be able to take and model that success. You know, at first everybody's like, oh, it can't work, and you don't want to do that. You had leaders going, oh, you can't do this, you can't do that. And and I'm not saying it's all been without any challenge or problems, but man, look at how that division is operating now that it's streamlined. Now, if we got a problem with facilities, we call one person. That thing's fixed. We don't have to go through, figure out who the warden or associate warden. There's going to be other divisions that I think we can improve in that. And I'm telling you, look how happy the facilities people are. The only ones that aren't happy is if you're working in facilities holding an electrical job and you didn't know electrical, you're not happy right now because we don't need you in facilities if you can't do that job. Just because a warden or somebody likes you and puts you in that job, you're going to find that there's going to be excellent the standard that others, if you're an electrician working in facilities, you want to work around other people that actually know what they're doing. So we're just giving them the ability to do that. We're going to be doing that same all the way down through and really improving it for the people that uh that work in it every day.
SPEAKER_02And and and the point that you made, um, you might be a great basketball player, great point guard, doesn't mean you're a quarterback. So if the job opens up for quarterback, it don't mean you're gonna need to go over there and try to play quarterback, and that's kind of what we've ended up with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, by empowering these wardens, holding them accountable, and when they're seeing real change happen in their facilities, that's when things have really started to take off. 100%. So I want to wrap up with one question that I I hope we'll will hit something with you that will uh allow the listeners and and the viewers a little bit of insight to yourself. Um when you look back on this period of time with this bureau years from now, what do you hope that they will say about a formally incarcerated individual being the deputy director of the Bureau of Prisons? And what do you hope in your mind that you've accomplished in the amount of time that we're here, which is going by really quickly? Um just share that with me a little bit.
SPEAKER_00I I think two things. One, uh, and look, maybe somebody would say this is polyamorous thinking, you know, this this you know, pie in the sky thinking. I I hope that the business experience that I've had can really can can really help create an environment where we put the right leaders in the right place, where people are able to experience what it's like to actually enjoy where they are and work. And we have plenty of people that enjoy what they do, uh, but we also have plenty that don't, right? And that are unhappy, you know, that that uh you know we've had poor staffing levels, all those things. What I'm hopeful is we can take and create at least a structure and model that that the end result is a place that people are proud of, that they enjoy working at, and that they understand how important what they do is. They understand the mission. And so uh again, that's yeah, and there was somebody on one of the staff recalls. They just said, you know, what's one thing you hope you can accomplish uh before you leave? What what what do you really want said? And that was that kind of caught me off guard because sometimes you just get in and you're just doing the job. And and I just said, I would hope to create a place that you're not counting down the days that you've this first chance you can get out the door that you can leave. Um so so that I I would hope that we can create by putting in the right leaders, the training, and those things. I think secondly, you know, being somebody that has been there, somebody that's been formerly incarcerated. What I hope is is that I can bridge that and and help staff even understand that this is our role, right? To be able to take these very difficult, challenged lives just like I was at one time, and then be able to help challenge them, hold them accountable, and shape them into who they need to be there in society. And and and I hope that what I'm able to do between these two is build that bridge. You know, there was a a person who's been in prison a long time that that told me the last time I saw him, I I shook his hand. Said over 30 years, nobody with a badge on their chest has ever shaken my hand. He said, This is only the second time. I said, Well, when was the first? He said, When you were here six months ago. And so I I my goal is not to just the punishment was was rendered out when the judge put him in prison. Okay, that that is, let me tell you, that's the punishment you're separated from society. Our responsibility is though, is to create those next Josh Smiths or the many successful stories that we've had, not who I could have been without the right investment, right? Without the right change in trajectory of my life. And and I believe that we as leaders in these agencies can do both. And so what I hope to do is to be able to draw that dynamic and and and be that example that others can see that a life can change. I mean, my my life was not on the right trajectory. But now I I stand again as a married man married 30 years this year to my wife, my four children, my four grandchildren, getting to live a life that I don't deserve, pay a lot of taxes, a whole lot of tax, a whole lot more now being in this job because I can't do the same business type things that that I was able to do before. Um, but but that that's really what our goal is for those that can be. So I'm I'm hopeful that we can do that from the inside. It doesn't have to be from the outside that we can figure out how that works. Those that have been involved in that, that have shown life can change, I believe can help be a part of that change for so many others. And I do think it'll make a big difference in public safety.
SPEAKER_02A lot of people have asked, um, director, what what's your and and the deputy's legacy going to be when you leave here? And I said, let me let me stop you right there. Our legacy is our wife and our children, grandchildren, etc. That's our legacy. That that's who we'll leave a stamp on this earth with. Okay, so one last thing. Once you started the process to possibly be the director or the deputy director for the BOP, did you ever truly believe that without a doubt that you would be here in one of those two roles?
SPEAKER_00You know, I didn't. And in fact, I mean, interestingly enough, when the conversation first started, I thought, let me help you get some great people. I mean, I know a lot of great correctional leaders. Um, and uh and frankly, that's how I found you, right? I mean, I I was I was even helping the administration. I thought, I I don't need to do the job, I don't I don't have to be the one doing it. I can help find other great people and then I can assist others. Um and uh no, so I mean I think even through the process, many times you or I are part of it, you know. Just again thought, what would could this ever happen? Would this ever be a reality? And and frankly, I think only President Trump. I I say that all the time. I mean and and and I'm not, you know, people say, oh, and now he's just made a political statement. I I I would tell you if it wasn't that way. We've got unique, we've got a unique president that is willing to to do these unique things to fix the problems and challenges in our government. And and and I believe um that that this this will go down as a as a good decision. I'm working very hard every day to make everybody proud, you, uh, him, others in the administration, and frankly, people around the country are watching. Yeah. They're looking to see, is this gonna work out good? Is this gonna work out bad? And and I feel like people are starting to see, wait a minute, you know, that this is working out good. I I hope that our staff are able to look and go, you know, we didn't really like the thought of this. We didn't like the thought of this, but he is working for us. He is listening to us, he is paying attention, he is trying to make a difference. So um uh yeah, I mean, I I I think that uh it it's I'm glad it's happened. Uh excited to be able to you and I get to do this together. I get people I don't think understand, you know, the the the and and and even as you and I have been around the last uh uh couple of weeks a lot with Police Week and stuff around other agencies, uh they don't have this. And and so you and I and the relationship we've been able to build, uh the the us being able to do the things that that we're working on doing to improve this agency, you and I will be sitting on a front porch somewhere someday and and and talking about uh the this time that we've been able to spend.
SPEAKER_02We don't we don't smoke, uh, but we might l light up a couple cigars uh because when I look back on this process that you and I both went through, uh unlike anything I've ever experienced, okay, and I got to thinking I hadn't filled out a job resume or an application in 30 something years, you know, because uh where I'd been. Um but uh looking back on it, it's amazing how we were able to get through that process because not one time in any of my meetings outside of with you, I'm talking White House, Capitol, etc., did they mention that I was interviewing, quote unquote, for the director of Bureau of Prisons. It was just a position on the administration. So the fact that we survived that and got through that to me is is just an amazing, uh, amazing thing on its own.
SPEAKER_00And I believe I believe we're making them proud and helping them understand they made the right choice.
SPEAKER_02I believe that as well. Well, listen, I've really enjoyed this today. Um I roles reversed. Hopefully, I didn't um you know I didn't uh interrogate you too much. Uh that's been my background. Um, and uh I I love this this mindset of flipping the script, right? Flipping the script and flipping the Bureau of Prisons into the next century, the next AI, you know, AI frontier, right? We're pioneers in all this stuff. Um and so very, very excited to be able to do this. I think it's a great idea. Um, and I hope that I have filled your chair uh with grace and dignity and talent as you do. So thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02Yes, sir. Thank you.
